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Heritage Owners Club


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Resophonic last won the day on October 7 2019

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About Resophonic

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  1. Yes, that is true, Titebond will start to creep around 120 degrees. Elmers White glue starts going South around 110 degrees. Cars easily reach temperatures this high. Couple that with either of the mentioned glues, high heat and around 200 lbs. string pull force an a guitar and it doesn't take long for glue creep to cause a bridge or neck heel to lift. I did an experiment with dry granules of hide glue, which is the same state hide glue would be in after drying in wood joinery. I placed the dry hide glue granules on a 3/4" thick bar of Aluminum and heated the bar on a hot plate. I placed a bi-metallic thermometer on the Aluminum bar to monitor temperature. The hide glue never changed state until 400 degrees, at which point it started smoking. At 400 degrees, your wood instrument would be smoking too. I am confident that wood creep would absolutely not happen in a hot car if hide glue was used. However, if you live in a tropical rain forest, the high humidity could be a problem for an instrument put together with hide glue, not a problem around here.
  2. Sorry, didn't mean to come off as demeaning. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I clamped across the back of the mandolin from the neck heel, to the tail block. I applied as much force as I thought I could get away with and not dent the neck heel, I couldn't budge it at all. No, glue would help the lifted neck heel without first removing the neck completely and re-setting it. The decision was made to leave it alone for now and just do a good set up. I told the owner to keep an eye on the neck heel for any change but I am rather confident that it won't budge. I suspect that the lifting was caused from the mandolin being left in a hot car but don't know for sure.
  3. Yes, that is tempting for many to "just squirt some glue in". I have done several projects to reverse such impulses. I call them helpful Henry's. They mean well but often create more problems than they solve. Thanks for the kind words kidsmoke. I am in East Central Illinois, Champaign. I own and operate a cabinet business and have been doing instrument repair as a part time passion since 2000. I used to go fishing on the weekends but now spend them in my shop improving things with strings that are musical.
  4. Steve Cowles very graciously took the time to send me these images. thought I would also post them here for posterity... An unfinished F model with a tenon joint, either Gibson or Heritage.
  5. Steve Cowles got back to me today, with my feeling around in the neck heel separation using a thin blade and his input, I am convinced that the joint is a tenon. This from Steve: "As to the neck joint, I know that modern Gibson F-5s made here by my dad had tenon necks, and I think so did the Heritage ones. I’m unsure if he was doing that however with his personal builds. I’d have to see a few up close. The easiest way to know on an F style is to see if the portion of the neck that’s over the body is a separate piece of wood or not. Dovetail necks have an extra piece underneath the fingerboard, tenon joints don’t. I drew a line on this one to indicate where that line would be on your mandolin if it were a dovetail" I checked under strong light with magnification, no parting line. The neck and fingerboard extension support are one piece of wood. Removing the finger board in this case would reveal nothing but a continuation of neck wood. The only plausible way I see is to maybe pull this thing apart is to remove the heel cap, drill a hole at a bit of a downward angle, through the heel and into the center of the joint with a heating rod ( https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/StewMac_HeatStick_for_Neck_Removal.html ) to soften the glue. This could still be iffy and fraught with problems. My recommendation will be to do some cosmetic work to help hide the neck heel separation and the chipped finish there and then give it a proper set up the way it is. My thanks to those who responded here, for your help and input.
  6. Hi Jim, Funny, I was thinking a vet clinic might be a better angle to try than the very large, protocol driven, hospital megalopolis where I live. Thanks for your input.
  7. That brought a smile to my face... Heritage responded today with this response: "We believe it should be a dovetail. Regarding the glue, it would have been traditional/standard wood glue (white glue) and not hide. For the steam hole, unfortunately we're unable to recommend a place as we would need to have the mandolin in our possession to evaluate. Our repair tech said he would likely do it by removing the fretboard or back which requires a bit more work." I also made contact with Steve Cowles at Aaron's Music Service. He was actually out of town but responded: "Going by the pictures it should be a tenon. Probably built by my dad for Heritage. He would have used Titebond I'm sure. I would be tempted to force glue into the joint with a needle and clamp it good. Can respond more in depth if you like but I'm at Cedar Point today... I emailed back that would like to revisit this discussion when he returned and had the minutes to do so. At least I know what kind of glue was used...
  8. Thanks for contacting Katie and please thank Katie for sharing what she knows about the Heritage mandolin.
  9. An X Ray would be real handy, not quite ready to go that rout until I have exhausted brains to pick. Can't imagine getting X Rays done would be an inexpensive approach but it would definitely reveal all. Don't need an endo scope to see the neck or tail block, you can see them rather easily shining a light in one F hole and looking through the other. It looks just like a Gibson neck block but you can't tell from there how the neck block and neck are machined to fit. Yes StephenK, Aaron's was suggested in the second post, I'll be contacting them this week if I don't get a definitive answer soon. Thanks all for the replies...
  10. Took a closer look at the H-40 today. Tried moderate clamping pressure and it didn't move the heel gap noticeably. The joint seems secure enough, doing a proper set up and leaving the neck alone is definitely a choice on the solution menu. I also cut a narrow strip of thin sheet metal to feel around down in the heel gap. The thin probe went in 3/4" when aligned straight down at the heel. That part of the neck heel appears not to be secured with the joint construction and likely why the heel has opened up. Far as I can tell, the end of the (tenon, dovetail?) felt mostly flat, like the butt end of a straight mortise and tenon joint. It's either that, or it is a dovetail with narrow end cut flat. The thin probe could be pushed along one side of the heel, down deeper into the joint. Seemed to be going at an angle, like a dovetail V but hard to tell with glue residue and without chipping more finish off at the neck heel/ body connection. High Flying Bird, would you mind asking Katie again if she knows what method of construction was used for the neck joint? She mentioned that it was not a dovetail but then did not elaborate on how it is put together.
  11. Interesting, I thought for sure it must be a dovetail joint. Dowels then? A drilled hole would only be needed to inject steam, if I was going to disassemble a dovetail connection. That is why I am researching before any action is taken on this very nice instrument. The neck heel has lifted a bit but I get almost no movement at the joint with the strings loosened. I discussed just making the necessary bridge adjustments with the owner as the joint may have settled in this way and possibly remain stable but they where hoping I could close the heel gap. I am educating myself to weigh possible options on what to recommend to the owner. Neck removal is an invasive procedure and likely to force finish repair, at the least. I am still gathering information but plan to get the H-40 on the bench tomorrow for a closer look. The neck heel gap is open enough to probe for dowels and I can experiment with dry clamping to see if the gap can be closed. Thanks for contacting Katie....
  12. Not my mandolin but I sure wouldn't turn my nose up at this one, very nicely built instrument. The Heritage guy, Mike, wanted images too, which I sent off just a bit ago. I am supposing that they didn't document their builds very well. Hopefully, they will respond back with the info I need. Nice image of Katie you posted Doug, she does seem quite proud of her fathers beautiful work.
  13. Thanks for the replies all, I appreciate the leads. I am under no pressure to move the mandolin work along and still waiting for the Heritage contact to return from vacation and quiz staff. Good to know there are other brains to pick!
  14. Thanks for responding. I'm betting the Heritage mandolin is built like a Kalmazoo Gibson as well but the mandolin is in too nice of condition to experiment shoving steam needles into it on a location guess, assuming it IS dovetail construction. The Heritage person that responded to me is to be back from vacation some time end of this week. Said he would ask staff that would have been there when mandolins where still on their menu.
  15. Hoping someone here has had the neck off of an H-40 ASB "The Heritage " mandolin. It has an "F" prefix in the serial number, so I am assuming that it is a 1991 build. The mandolin is is very fine condition, with the exception of the neck heel lifting a bit, the owner wants it dealt with. Can I expect a dovetail neck to body connection? What kind of glue would have been used? Any guidance on where to drill a steam hole? I posed these questions straight to Heritage. The person that responded was on vacation but was willing to ask some of the employees when he got back, who had been there long enough to maybe know and answer my questions. He also suggested asking this forum and I am glad to have been made aware of this resource. Hoping there have been a few that have been there and done that. As stated, this mandolin is in very fine condition and I don't want to go into this project not knowing what I'll find.
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