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Pre Corp Heritage Guitar or Post Corp... Which would you buy?


Erob

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41 minutes ago, Polo said:

For me, the golden era thing isn't really about quality at all. It's about the people, the place and process of how things were done. 

Like others have said.....the mojo of it all is just gone.  

I do however see how this view point could be seen as ridiculous. 

I don't find it ridiculous at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with it. 

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26 minutes ago, Conneazoo said:

I don't find it ridiculous at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with it. 

Hurrumph.

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I own 12 Heritages, all but one are made between 1992 and 2014. I have had zero issues with these 11 Heritages, all deemed to be Golden Era or Pre Plaza Heritages. My 2017 535 has probably the finest attention to detail and quality than the other 11 Heritages, meaning fit, finish, etc. But none of the other 11 have ever had to go to a shop for ANY REASON other than my earliest 150 which I took to have the Schaller tailpiece and roller bridge replaced with a tune-o-matic and stoptail. 

You be the judge!

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Another factor when considering pre or post Golden Age Heritage purchases is the availability of now discontinued models. 

I did not see H525's, Golden Eagles, Super Eagles or Sweet 16's on the Heritage website.  Also, there are no artist models (e.g. Henry Johnson, Kenny Burrell, or Mimi Fox).

Yes, these and other models can be ordered as part of Heritage's Custom Shop...for a substantial price premium. 

Under the circumstances, scoring one of the many custom or artist model Heritage guitars from the Golden Age could be a relative bargain for current shoppers.  But not for long.  

 

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1 hour ago, Gitfiddler said:

 

Under the circumstances, scoring one of the many custom or artist model Heritage guitars from the Golden Age could be a relative bargain for current shoppers.  But not for long.  

 

 

 

I dunno, the top end carved top vintage Gibson market has been more than underwhelming for some time. They just seem to sit & sit & sit. There's a SMOKIN' 1959 L-5c w/a Johnny Smith pickguard that's been chilling on Reverb for 6 months now down to $8,900 OBO. Hard to imagine the Heritage carved tops getting there any time soon if Golden Era Gibsons can't pull their own weight, pricey arches are tough to move. By contrast, folks in the 90's thought golden era top end carved tops & flats were the thing to buy. 

 

If they go down further by any significant margin, Gibson or Heritage, I'm gonna nab a nice guitar! Not a good thing for some...but a great thing for me  :) 

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Perhaps something to consider when discussing higher-end Heritage or Gibson reissue Les Paul's. The percentage of people currently playing an electric guitar in the age group of 20- 35 is going to have a difficult time coming up with $8,000 disposable cash to purchase one. Even $3000 for that matter. I think if someone took a poll of who is purchasing these guitars would find they are 40 years old and up. Also, a good percentage of the youth today does not see the value in purchasing a higher-end guitar, basically all they are looking for is portability, reasonable tone and not so much the Mystique of where it all began.

Time plus distance equals disassociation.

If anything the value of these types of guitars may very well decline as time goes by. Especially the reissues. Today's generation values work / personal time balance, they tow around a small house on the back of their hybrid vehicle for goodness sake. Much less by a high-end custom guitar. 

Lastly, there are so many guitars out there. I can't help but think the majority in that age group has little interest in owning a reissue. First they can't afford it and second there are so many other means of getting the tone a person is after nowadays without buying that type of guitar it reduces the need significantly to buy one.

Just a few thoughts. 

Oh yeah.... Heritage Golden era or Corp era?  :)

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21 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

None of my custom shop Les Pauls (I currently own 2) have needed a PLEK, EVER or any nutwork, or either of my SGs, or my Firebird, or my J45 or my J100 Xtra, although I did have another Firebird (which I sold ASAP) with a loose tuner and a pickup cover fall off, and another ES335 with file marks on the binding, but back to fretwork, all three of my Golden Era Heritages needed it, or to properly say, needed both nuts and fretwork! Fretwork and nuts, and Nashville bridges, are the only thing I complain about when it comes to the Golden Era Heritages. My two Heritages after the work have been keepers, and I'm pretty picky, so that's saying something.

I am hard pressed to believe that Gibson does not plek their custom shop guitars. I'm under the impression that they plek all of their guitars at the factory. It wouldn't make sense to me that they only plek their least expensive models.

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17 hours ago, Polo said:

For me, the golden era thing isn't really about quality at all. It's about the people, the place and process of how things were done. 

Like others have said.....the mojo of it all is just gone.  

I do however see how this view point could be seen as ridiculous. 

Yeah you're a little too close to the inside to see it from my point of view which is just based on the end result. I remember looking at the old shop and saying something about cleaning it up and people jumped on me for that, you know, you don't what kill the mojo:) If I were friends with "golden era employees maybe I'd feel different about it. 

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8 hours ago, HANGAR18 said:

I am hard pressed to believe that Gibson does not plek their custom shop guitars. I'm under the impression that they plek all of their guitars at the factory. It wouldn't make sense to me that they only plek their least expensive models.

Many of my  Gibsons were bought before Gibson even started using the machines on the USA models.

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6 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Yeah you're a little too close to the inside to see it from my point of view which is just based on the end result. I remember looking at the old shop and saying something about cleaning it up and people jumped on me for that, you know, you don't what kill the mojo:) If I were friends with "golden era employees maybe I'd feel different about it. 

 

 

I went to a drive in movie theatre in NW Arkansas with my Uncle & the kids a few weeks ago. The place is a real blast from the past. So we're standing in the concession line, just he and I, and we watched the old fella with a giant hearing aid pour our drinks then grab some popcorn take about as long as as anyone possibly could to do that simple task. Then the even older lady at the cash register looked lost when we bundled the orders together. It was like they couldn't speed up even if they tried. 

My uncle whispers "Effective Time Management? Whoever owns this business needs to read up."

I thought for second, laughed. 

Then I told him that I can remember all these quirky businesses I used to shop at in the 90's and they're all dead now. "I don't think they survived the internet era but I'm glad as hell this place is still trucking along just the way it is.." 

 

 

Of course, of the way too many guitars my addiction has brought through the door I've never fret over some fret/nut work for years and years on end...as if I was intentionally slighted by some malicious power! And I've had some reaaaaaal doozies. 

 

 

 

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If the OP has no local ones to play another option is finding one on the Guitar Center used gear site. Assuming the guitar is not considered “vintage” (25 years old or more) there is a 45 day trial period to test drive it. This is even better if the op has a GC in the area. No risk  

Re the op’s original question I like the older mojo. 

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16 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Many of my  Gibsons were bought before Gibson even started using the machines on the USA models.

Okay, I can accept that.

But I did ask Gibson about their use of the Plek machines since this thread got me thinking about it. Yes, they are using them for all their guitars now days.

Gibson-Pleking.jpg

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10 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

I went to a drive in movie theatre in NW Arkansas with my Uncle & the kids a few weeks ago. The place is a real blast from the past. So we're standing in the concession line, just he and I, and we watched the old fella with a giant hearing aid pour our drinks then grab some popcorn take about as long as as anyone possibly could to do that simple task. Then the even older lady at the cash register looked lost when we bundled the orders together. It was like they couldn't speed up even if they tried. 

My uncle whispers "Effective Time Management? Whoever owns this business needs to read up."

I thought for second, laughed. 

Then I told him that I can remember all these quirky businesses I used to shop at in the 90's and they're all dead now. "I don't think they survived the internet era but I'm glad as hell this place is still trucking along just the way it is.." 

 

 

Of course, of the way too many guitars my addiction has brought through the door I've never fret over some fret/nut work for years and years on end...as if I was intentionally slighted by some malicious power! And I've had some reaaaaaal doozies. 

 

 

 

Nice story, and your local movie theater sounds like a fun place, but I prefer the kind of craftsmanship from the people that make my guitars that exudes pride down to last part of the build. I love my Heritages built by the old guard, but I'm glad the new guard is choosing to build guitars with an eye for total quality. That kind of craftsmanship goes a long way with me.

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22 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Yeah you're a little too close to the inside to see it from my point of view which is just based on the end result. I remember looking at the old shop and saying something about cleaning it up and people jumped on me for that, you know, you don't what kill the mojo:) If I were friends with "golden era employees maybe I'd feel different about it. 

I never did anything but laugh when the conditions of the factory were discussed.  We talked about taking some plastic bags to collect some saw dust into.  We all had a grocery bag of it in our shoes after we left.

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My Heritage lineup consists of H150 Ultra,H555,H575,Golden Eagle and Super Eagle and I'm not

currently looking to increase the number BUT if I were looking to replicate them where should I 

look? (lets exclude Gibson,I have very little time for this brand,I've played too many bad ones).

My reason for looking at Heritage in the first place was the attraction of a small group of people

who were trying to make guitars in the manner of the company they had left but to the quality that

there previous employers were not making them.

An additional attraction in the UK was that very few people had ever heard of Heritage (and still have not)

so that used prices are very competitive (my virtually mint Golden Eagle cost £1500,not sure of this in dollars

but I am sure a good price,try buying an L5 for anywhere near this sort of value)

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5 hours ago, High Flying Bird said:

I never did anything but laugh when the conditions of the factory were discussed.  We talked about taking some plastic bags to collect some saw dust into.  We all had a grocery bag of it in our shoes after we left.

You're right, of course.   It was like walking into your uncle's garage, with tools and parts everywhere, maybe a motorcycle in the corner under a tarp,  and a couple of bare bulbs for light.   In many ways, it was the very thing that you see on each episode of American Pickers.   I don't know that its the best way to grow and run a business these days, especially if you expect to make a profit and meet today's health and safety standard.

As quaint as the old spray booth was,  it wasn't a particularly safe area.   Nitro lacquer and solvent fumes can be dangerous stuff.   I know of coatings plants that have burnt to the ground because of it.   I had to audit 4 plants after a fire and explosion from a batch of nitrocellulose ink.   The new spray booth is much safer, and I'm guessing they are getting much better results since dust is controlled.  

I remember back in the 60s and 70s when people used to build cars for the Indy 500 in their garages, using pipe benders and arc welders.    The floors were dirty and oil stained, and stuff hung from the rafters.    Contrast that with Penske's operation.   You could walk into his workshops and eat off the floor.   Everything was in its place,  even the corners of the garage were clean.   It showed up in results when he started winning races and championships consistently, and other followed suit.

Sometimes change can be good.

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12 hours ago, rockabilly69 said:

Nice story, and your local movie theater sounds like a fun place, but I prefer the kind of craftsmanship from the people that make my guitars that exudes pride down to last part of the build. I love my Heritages built by the old guard, but I'm glad the new guard is choosing to build guitars with an eye for total quality. That kind of craftsmanship goes a long way with me.

 

 

I don't think there's much merit for this argument and here's why:

 

Anyone who follows how manufacturers build guitars knows the evolution of the past 20-40 years in processes as you do to. It's dramatic, the change, complete electronic/digital moisture control from start to finish with completely climate controlled building facilities, far more precise station-specific tools/machines which make perfect outcomes easy peasy, 180 on many assembly procedures like allowing the instrument acclimate fully built as white wood before slotting/fretting thanks to research on neck outcomes, far better access needed educational resources as such in wood study, lutherie, etc, unprecedented access to international lumber markets, and I could go on. 

 

Basically, the majority of the process is way more advanced that it was. Which means...ALL old guitars are therefore of low quality because the ALL the manufacturers used dated procedures which are proven to lead to poor outcomes circa 2019. Even Heritage sill has a few zingers IIRC. This is the conclusion you have to derive if "quality" is the term you choose because "quality" is the finality of the outcome of the processes. For instance, I've only refret a few old Gibsons & Fenders but not a single one (on 1st ever refret) didn't have a varying amount of neck rise at the joint and many at the first fret too. Just like a Heritage probably has at the joint and the 1st fret too though I've never refret one. Why is this? They fret the fingeboards before gluing and Fender slotted/finished the neck first. So, they don't adjust to the joint before the slots are cut, the assembled/fretted hunk of wood adjusts afterwords. Therefore, ALL old Gibsons/Fenders are of low quality. Some new too, as you hide the inevitable neck/hump rise with leveling/plek-ing tall frets.

 

You 100% have to conclude old guitars are of low quality because it is based in fact that their processes of old are outdated...their moisture control at the factory, their methods of leveling frets, their crappy loosy goosy low tolerance router assemblies, etc. But, when old instruments were made they didn't know about any of this stuff...just like Heritage was stuck in the Dinosaur ages circa 2000, they always thought they were building things of high quality. 

 

I get it, you don't want stuff to look crappy or high frets etc. But, at the end of the day I know of a number of manufacturers who build really nice, perfect, archtops that sound like they're strung with freaking rubber bands when you pluck them. Yet I know of local garage maker with no access to any finer tools or facilities who builds stuff that plays/sounds amazing. Which one exudes quality? 

 

IMO, once folks use the term "quality" they have to be honest and consistent. That's how logic works, it must be applied with a rigor of equivalence. 

 

I don't believe in that term just like I don't believe modern "craftsmanship" is superior to what amazing things guys could build in the freaking 1900's because I look at the Forest versus the trees... the way things were built in 1900 was way more impressive than a damn H-150 with nicely plek'd frets, lol. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, deytookerjaabs said:

 

 

I don't think there's much merit for this argument and here's why:

 

Anyone who follows how manufacturers build guitars knows the evolution of the past 20-40 years in processes as you do to. It's dramatic, the change, complete electronic/digital moisture control from start to finish with completely climate controlled building facilities, far more precise station-specific tools/machines which make perfect outcomes easy peasy, 180 on many assembly procedures like allowing the instrument acclimate fully built as white wood before slotting/fretting thanks to research on neck outcomes, far better access needed educational resources as such in wood study, lutherie, etc, unprecedented access to international lumber markets, and I could go on. 

 

Basically, the majority of the process is way more advanced that it was. Which means...ALL old guitars are therefore of low quality because the ALL the manufacturers used dated procedures which are proven to lead to poor outcomes circa 2019. Even Heritage sill has a few zingers IIRC. This is the conclusion you have to derive if "quality" is the term you choose because "quality" is the finality of the outcome of the processes. For instance, I've only refret a few old Gibsons & Fenders but not a single one (on 1st ever refret) didn't have a varying amount of neck rise at the joint and many at the first fret too. Just like a Heritage probably has at the joint and the 1st fret too though I've never refret one. Why is this? They fret the fingeboards before gluing and Fender slotted/finished the neck first. So, they don't adjust to the joint before the slots are cut, the assembled/fretted hunk of wood adjusts afterwords. Therefore, ALL old Gibsons/Fenders are of low quality. Some new too, as you hide the inevitable neck/hump rise with leveling/plek-ing tall frets.

 

You 100% have to conclude old guitars are of low quality because it is based in fact that their processes of old are outdated...their moisture control at the factory, their methods of leveling frets, their crappy loosy goosy low tolerance router assemblies, etc. But, when old instruments were made they didn't know about any of this stuff...just like Heritage was stuck in the Dinosaur ages circa 2000, they always thought they were building things of high quality. 

 

I get it, you don't want stuff to look crappy or high frets etc. But, at the end of the day I know of a number of manufacturers who build really nice, perfect, archtops that sound like they're strung with freaking rubber bands when you pluck them. Yet I know of local garage maker with no access to any finer tools or facilities who builds stuff that plays/sounds amazing. Which one exudes quality? 

 

IMO, once folks use the term "quality" they have to be honest and consistent. That's how logic works, it must be applied with a rigor of equivalence. 

 

I don't believe in that term just like I don't believe modern "craftsmanship" is superior to what amazing things guys could build in the freaking 1900's because I look at the Forest versus the trees... the way things were built in 1900 was way more impressive than a damn H-150 with nicely plek'd frets, lol. 

 

 

 

Fun Fact: These 3177 characters would require 11.3 tweets

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5 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

You're right, of course.   It was like walking into your uncle's garage, with tools and parts everywhere, maybe a motorcycle in the corner under a tarp,  and a couple of bare bulbs for light.   In many ways, it was the very thing that you see on each episode of American Pickers.   I don't know that its the best way to grow and run a business these days, especially if you expect to make a profit and meet today's health and safety standard.

As quaint as the old spray booth was,  it wasn't a particularly safe area.   Nitro lacquer and solvent fumes can be dangerous stuff.   I know of coatings plants that have burnt to the ground because of it.   I had to audit 4 plants after a fire and explosion from a batch of nitrocellulose ink.   The new spray booth is much safer, and I'm guessing they are getting much better results since dust is controlled.  

I remember back in the 60s and 70s when people used to build cars for the Indy 500 in their garages, using pipe benders and arc welders.    The floors were dirty and oil stained, and stuff hung from the rafters.    Contrast that with Penske's operation.   You could walk into his workshops and eat off the floor.   Everything was in its place,  even the corners of the garage were clean.   It showed up in results when he started winning races and championships consistently, and other followed suit.

Sometimes change can be good.

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. 

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as for the original question: I would say new or old, would both be a great instrument

chances of buying a new, old Heritage are getting slimmer as time goes by: so if you need *new* it's pretty clear

used guitar = usually have to do some kind of work to it, even if it's adjusting the setup

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I'm curious if some of you believe "Eastman Guitars" should be derided for their techniques as well? Their philosophy is that guitars aren't microprocessors so they basically build instruments about 50-100 years behind where Heritage was in 1985 so no "lean manufacturing" ethos etc... Yet, they seem to be really loved and not castigated on the 'net to near the extent I see the "old" Heritage being criticized? 

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