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Pre Corp Heritage Guitar or Post Corp... Which would you buy?


Erob

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I don't think we have really derided Heritage for their techniques.   As a matter of fact, they are pretty much doing things as they always have, from building the fretboard, making their own kerfing,  cutting the slots for the binding, rounding the neck by hand, even doing the lacquer.   The biggest change that I saw between the old room and where they are today was in the organization based on workflow,  shop cleanliness, and improved lighting and ventilation.   They still bend rims on the old steam bender,   use the same old press to mold the laminate tops for the 535s,  use the same duplicarver to rough shape the bodies,  and use the same big ol' slack belt sander to shape the tops.   

The only major change came in the fret dressing/nut cutting area, which has the PLEK machine.  

From what I've seen of Eastman's manufacturing techniques,  they look shockingly similar to Heritage's.   Both are worlds different from what you would see at PRS,  Gibson USA or Fender.   Of course  Eastman makes a lot of acoustics and quite a few different archtops.   Heritage used to have lots of different archtop styles, but I doubt that they sold in anywhere close to the numbers of the H150 or H535.   Those are the "bread and butter" guitars. 

While Heritage has streamlined their system and their lineup, its far from any "lean manufacturing" or 6-sigma based system I ever worked with.

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On 7/19/2019 at 9:59 PM, TalismanRich said:

... and yes, Chico,  I agree that it was much better for PlazaCorp and Bandlab to invest in Heritage than to have the owners simply close up shop because no one wanted the business.  

If I could just clarify this very misleading statement:
   When Plaza bought 225 Parsons there was no plans or intent for a small guitar company occupying the building it was all about Real Estate development. A bunch of historic building resistance and a city development incentive caused a making lemonade situation with Heritage as an alternative, I truly believe Bandlab was out of survival... They are focuses on many other higher profit business models other than a small American guitar co.

I am happy a few of my friends still float the Heritage Torch... Sad many more of my friends are not.
 

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57 minutes ago, TalismanRich said:

 

While Heritage has streamlined their system and their lineup, its far from any "lean manufacturing" or 6-sigma based system I ever worked with.

 

I agree, Heritage today still isn't anywhere where Fender is in this department but they sure ass **** have changed from where Eastman is today and Heritage of yesteryear. 

 

 

Here's a thought on the topic, "Golden Era" Heritage shipped about on average 7-12 guitars a day, 5 days a week around 45 weeks a year for 3+ decades? Is that a couple thou a year for 30 years? That's a lot of guitars if my math is right. 40-60k guitars? Or am I way off? 

 

On Reverb right now from '85 to 2010 there's 84 "used" Heritage guitars for sale....of all 140 used models total and 15-20 of those are 2017 and up. 

 

That's a super thin used market if the numbers are close to correct, or my numbers are wrong cause that doesn't sound right. 

 

Am I way off here???

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4 hours ago, deytookerjaabs said:

Here's a thought on the topic, "Golden Era" Heritage shipped about on average 7-12 guitars a day, 5 days a week around 45 weeks a year for 3+ decades? Is that a couple thou a year for 30 years? That's a lot of guitars if my math is right. 40-60k guitars? Or am I way off? 

Am I way off here???

In full production with the Golden Era I believe They produced less that 20 a week. 

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In the Golden Era I remember 20 or less guitars a week. I lost my spark for Heritage when guitar production was moved to the new facility. I knew all good things would come to an end someday that is why I enjoyed visiting the factory and friends at Heritage from 1993 until 2017. I agree the sale to Plaza was about Real Estate and the buy in by Bandlab about the experience (Theme Park). I will not go into how the sale eventually screwed all the long time small dealers that enthusiastically supported the brand for years. I would only consider buying a Golden Era guitars. I love the feel and quirks.

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5 hours ago, StephenK said:

In the Golden Era I remember 20 or less guitars a week. I lost my spark for Heritage when guitar production was moved to the new facility. I knew all good things would come to an end someday that is why I enjoyed visiting the factory and friends at Heritage from 1993 until 2017. I agree the sale to Plaza was about Real Estate and the buy in by Bandlab about the experience (Theme Park). I will not go into how the sale eventually screwed all the long time small dealers that enthusiastically supported the brand for years. I would only consider buying a Golden Era guitars. I love the feel and quirks.

+1

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Pete Farmer is aces. One of the best. The Heritage Guitars built today are indeed fine instrument. Just not the same same to me.

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On 7/21/2019 at 5:10 AM, rockabilly69 said:

Yeah you're a little too close to the inside to see it from my point of view which is just based on the end result. I remember looking at the old shop and saying something about cleaning it up and people jumped on me for that, you know, you don't what kill the mojo:) If I were friends with "golden era employees maybe I'd feel different about it. 

MOJO, what an overused meaningless term. None of my Heritages that the old boys built had magical spells or magical powers! Charming, yes. Magical powers, no. 

Mojo definition is - a magic spell, hex, or charm; broadly : magical powers

 

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4 minutes ago, ElNumero said:

MOJO, what an overused meaningless term. None of my Heritages that the old boys built had magical spells or magical powers! Charming, yes. Magical powers, no. 

Mojo definition is - a magic spell, hex, or charm; broadly : magical powers

 

Of course you know i was joking :) 

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On 7/22/2019 at 8:45 AM, TalismanRich said:

You're right, of course.   It was like walking into your uncle's garage, with tools and parts everywhere, maybe a motorcycle in the corner under a tarp,  and a couple of bare bulbs for light.   In many ways, it was the very thing that you see on each episode of American Pickers.   I don't know that its the best way to grow and run a business these days, especially if you expect to make a profit and meet today's health and safety standard.

As quaint as the old spray booth was,  it wasn't a particularly safe area.   Nitro lacquer and solvent fumes can be dangerous stuff.   I know of coatings plants that have burnt to the ground because of it.   I had to audit 4 plants after a fire and explosion from a batch of nitrocellulose ink.   The new spray booth is much safer, and I'm guessing they are getting much better results since dust is controlled.  

I remember back in the 60s and 70s when people used to build cars for the Indy 500 in their garages, using pipe benders and arc welders.    The floors were dirty and oil stained, and stuff hung from the rafters.    Contrast that with Penske's operation.   You could walk into his workshops and eat off the floor.   Everything was in its place,  even the corners of the garage were clean.   It showed up in results when he started winning races and championships consistently, and other followed suit.

Sometimes change can be good.

Rich, last I heard, you had an old motorcycle stored under a tarp in your garage. And regarding American Pickers, isn't that a country western and bluegrass show broadcast out of Nashville? I think I am going to start a business collecting antiques all across the country. And I am going to incorporate it and name it Antique Arcaeology. 

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On 7/22/2019 at 12:53 PM, Polo said:

 

Fun Fact: These 3177 characters would require 11.3 tweets

LMAO! I quit reading after the first paragraph (yawn)

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1 hour ago, pressure said:

My Spruce Prospect, pre Plaza Corp., and my SuperLight Millie, post Plaza Corp., are both Fab guitars and both were made by Pete Farmer at Heritage. I like Heritage guitars!

So your saying that Pete made those two guitars from A to Z, every process was performed by Pete? 

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12 minutes ago, rockabilly69 said:

Of course you know i was joking :) 

Of course of course Dan! Perhaps Polo was also. 

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56 minutes ago, pressure said:

My Spruce Prospect, pre Plaza Corp., and my SuperLight Millie, post Plaza Corp., are both Fab guitars and both were made by Pete Farmer at Heritage. I like Heritage guitars!

You're one of the few people here that can actually make an informed call on how the "new Heritage" is doing. Wasn't your last custom job done by the new guard? How were they to work with, and what was the overall quality like? I know this, if I needed to buy a Les Paul style guitar (Les Pauls are my favorite guitar), I would definitely consider a new Heritage as some of the newer ones I've seen at Joy Wolfe's online webstore look GREAT, and they have decent weights. Look at this one... https://www.gbase.com/gear/heritage-h-150-2019-dirty-lemonburst-1

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You can slice and dice this topic up anyway you want. You can reject the new Heritage made guitars, or accept them, it's your choice. However, one day down the road, long after all of us have departed this world, those old Heritages will become vintage guitars. Imagine your great grandchildren telling a story about you acquiring your first Heritage guitar, how you acquired it, how it was passed down to succeeding generations. Make no mistake, there will be stories....that will linger on indefinitely about those 50+ year old guitars made in Kalamazoo. 

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1 minute ago, ElNumero said:

You can slice and dice this topic up anyway you want. You can reject the new Heritage made guitars, or accept them, it's your choice. However, one day down the road, long after all of us have departed this world, those old Heritages will become vintage guitars. Imagine your great grandchildren telling a story about you acquiring your first Heritage guitar, how you acquired it, how it was passed down to succeeding generations. Make no mistake, there will be stories....that will linger on indefinitely about those 50+ year old guitars made in Kalamazoo. 

The story of the connection to old employees would be a good one. But most guitar companies that have been around awhile have evolved and gone through changes, with somethings getting better through the years, and some of these post plaza guitars will become KILLER vintage pieces too. I remember in the early 80's when Fender started bringing back the quality to their guitars in their association with the Japanese, especially all the work that Dan Smith did. So for me, maybe this will be a new chapter in Heritage history that we will also tell our grandchildren. Because I've never been to PSP, or taken a tour of the old Heritage, I feel I've missed out, but frankly when you guys posted pictures of what that shop looked like, the disarray of the place would have driven me, with my anal nature, crazy:) When I use to work on guitars (which for a few years when I first turned to full-time music I did) to supplement my income, my work area was immaculate. That said, I would have loved to talk to Marv Lamb, and ask him about the way he used to build guitars in the Gibson golden era, and how he shapes necks because I love the way the heel feels on my H150s. I like my two H150s a lot, I've had more than one person ask me to sell them. I made both of them my own, and they both play really well and have great tone, but I had to work on both the fretboard and considerably to get them to play well, and neither ones has any of their original hardware or electronics in them. They were both just good hunks of wood to start with. I like that they have Honduran mahogany and Michigan maple!!!

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39 minutes ago, Millennium Maestro said:

I miss the Ol' days of getting drunk with the original owners, hearing those one of a kind stories from the insiders and having grown men call their wives to get them home safely due the the enabling qualities of the Maestro.

You? Enabling qualities? Naw, never....

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1 hour ago, ElNumero said:

So your saying that Pete made those two guitars from A to Z, every process was performed by Pete? 

That's not what I'm saying. I've had guitars built by Marv, Jim, JP and Pete and none of them were sole author. Marv built guitars but mainly necks, paint and tap tuning JP built bodies. Jim did a little of everything. Pete is Heritages master builder. He does design, wood selection, assembly, mentors the new builders, consults on the phone and over sees all Heritage production. A custom Heritage guitar doesn't get built without Pete's involvement. I probably am simplifing but that's why it's a guitar factory, a lot of people do a lot of things, binding, buffing, finishing, wiring and final assembly. Things may have changed at Heritage but its still the same.

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2 minutes ago, pressure said:

That's not what I'm saying. I've had guitars built by Marv, Jim, JP and Pete and none of them were sole author. Marv built guitars but mainly necks, paint and tap tuning JP built bodies. Jim did a little of everything. Pete is Heritages master builder. He does design, wood selection, assembly, mentors the new builders, consults on the phone and over sees all Heritage production. A custom Heritage guitar doesn't get built without Pete's involvement. I probably am simplifing but that's why it's a guitar factory, a lot of people do a lot of things, binding, buffing, finishing, wiring and final assembly. Things may have changed at Heritage but its still the same.

Thanks, I just needed clarification Richard. When somebody says Marv built them a 357, I fully realize Marv did not build every single facet of the 357, but ultimately involved in every process. Yeah, Pete is quite a guy. And I don't think he ever even went to guitar lutherie school either. He must have learned it all OTJ.

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