Schaller fine tuning bridge on Heritage?

[rwinking]

I bought a Heritage Leon Rhodes from John Covach a couple of years back. It is a really cool guitar and I think there were only three or four made. It has a Schaller fine tuning bridge which I really like and apparently John said it was stock. Has anyone put one of these on any other guitars like H-150, 535, etc?

I would like to hear any feedback, =/- on them as I am thinking about putting one on  an H-150 or 170.

thanks in advance

[bobmeyrick]

It always struck me that the Schaller bridge originally used by Heritage was a fine tuning bridge without the fine tuners, and as such the fine tuning version would have been a direct replacement. Since replacing the Schaller hardware is an easy job (the threads are the same as the 'Nashville' setup), the reverse process should likewise be easy. Incidentally the original Fender Esprit (as used by Robben Ford) used the same Schaller roller bridge and fine tuning tailpiece. The Elite and Ultra models had the fine tuners, while the Standard had the non-fine tuning tailpiece as used on most Heritage models before the early 2000s. The pickups were also Schallers, but not the usual sized humbuckers - they had three mounting screws, two in the top corners and one in the middle of the bottom edge. The later reissues had "normal" humbuckers, as Robben may well have replaced the pickups on his guitar.

[Kuz]

There is a study that showed Nashville/ABR bridges and stoptails had like 17-20% more sustain.... and the Schaller hardware is a lot heavier.

Just what I read.  Then I replaced the Schaller hardware off my first Heritage (a 555) and at the very least I could feel the guitar was lighter. 

I guess you could say that I am not a fan. 

[Kuz]

8 hours ago, bobmeyrick said:

It always struck me that the Schaller bridge originally used by Heritage was a fine tuning bridge without the fine tuners, and as such the fine tuning version would have been a direct replacement. Since replacing the Schaller hardware is an easy job (the threads are the same as the 'Nashville' setup), the reverse process should likewise be easy. Incidentally the original Fender Esprit (as used by Robben Ford) used the same Schaller roller bridge and fine tuning tailpiece. The Elite and Ultra models had the fine tuners, while the Standard had the non-fine tuning tailpiece as used on most Heritage models before the early 2000s. The pickups were also Schallers, but not the usual sized humbuckers - they had three mounting screws, two in the top corners and one in the middle of the bottom edge. The later reissues had "normal" humbuckers, as Robben may well have replaced the pickups on his guitar.

I had one of those original Robben Ford Fenders.  Mine was made in the Japan custom shop.  I think (possibly) they use the schaller hardware because the top was spruce (over mahogany body) and the body was very light.  Despite the heavier Schaller hardware to offset the light body, the guitar had a bad neck dive when playing it standing with a strap.  So I sold it.... and got more than I paid for it originally. 

[bobmeyrick]

The Schaller fine tuning tailpiece looks like a sleeker version of the Gibson TP6, which i understand was invented by Ren Wall. While Googling the TP6 I came across this article which may be of interest. The writer has installed them on an SG and a Firebird and is very happy with the results. They seem relatively inexpensive, (around £35/$50) so you could give it a try  and if it doesn't work for you, you can easily reinstall the stop bar. Lets us know how you get on.

[DetroitBlues]

I think they look really cool, but were invented because tuners back in the day had low gear ratio's so your guitar would never been perfectly in-tune.  However, looking at the "fine tuning" does it rather provide fine intonation since it adjusts pitch rather than tuning?

"When the guitar has been tuned using the machine heads, they can be more finely adjusted;Tightening the screw raises the pitch; loosening it lowers the pitch."

With all the advancement in tuners and other advances such as Earvana nuts or those crazy zig-zag frets, is a fine tuning tailpiece really needed?

 

[bobmeyrick]

41 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

I think they look really cool, but were invented because tuners back in the day had low gear ratio's so your guitar would never been perfectly in-tune.  However, looking at the "fine tuning" does it rather provide fine intonation since it adjusts pitch rather than tuning?

"When the guitar has been tuned using the machine heads, they can be more finely adjusted;Tightening the screw raises the pitch; loosening it lowers the pitch."

With all the advancement in tuners and other advances such as Earvana nuts or those crazy zig-zag frets, is a fine tuning tailpiece really needed?

 

I suppose one advantage is that it's perhaps easier to reach the fine tuners on the tailpiece than the tuners in the headstock - more convenient for a quick adjustment in the middle of a song.

[LK155]

1 hour ago, DetroitBlues said:

I think they look really cool, but were invented because tuners back in the day had low gear ratio's so your guitar would never been perfectly in-tune.  However, looking at the "fine tuning" does it rather provide fine intonation since it adjusts pitch rather than tuning?

"When the guitar has been tuned using the machine heads, they can be more finely adjusted;Tightening the screw raises the pitch; loosening it lowers the pitch."

With all the advancement in tuners and other advances such as Earvana nuts or those crazy zig-zag frets, is a fine tuning tailpiece really needed?

 

 

I was always under the impression that turning a tuner knob, no matter where it happens to be located on the instrument, was changing the pitch of the string.  Intonation, on the other hand, affects the length of the string from nut to saddle, and changing intonation of a string allows for getting its pitch correct at the octave point. 

[davesultra]

I used to have an H-357 which had the fine tuning Schaller tailpiece. I remember not having much of an opinion about it. It worked as it was supposed to, so I guess all was good.

[DetroitBlues]

My statements above were more of a question than a definitive answer.

I'm really curious to know what exactly does it do.

[bobmeyrick]

2 minutes ago, DetroitBlues said:

My statements above were more of a question than a definitive answer.

I'm really curious to know what exactly does it do.

In the Schaller (and TP6) fine tuning tailpiece the ball end of the string is held in a small lever arrangement which rests against the small thumb-wheel when the string is under tension. Turning the thumb-wheel will increase or decrease the tension (and hence the pitch) by small amount, depending on which way the wheel is turned. 

You can see the principle in the fine tuners used on violins, which is where I believe Ren Wall got the idea...

Turn the wheel clockwise and it pushes the lever down, which pulls the string back and increases the tension/pitch. Turn it anticlockwise and the lever moves up, which lets the string move forward and reduces the tension/pitch. Have a look at the article I linked to in my second post for a review of the Schaller and why the guy likes using them.

[rwinking]

Thanks everybody for the opinions expressed. As I said I like this bridge on my heritage Leon Rhodes. It makes tuning in the middle of a song ultra simple. and after reading the article, it sounds like it works really well on most any LP, 335, style guitar. So I just ordered another one. I will let you know how it goes.

You guys are great.

rick