JohnCovach Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I'm trying to get something straight: Heritage uses mother of pearl inlays and Gibson uses pearloid, correct? And I have heard folks gripe about how cheap it is of Gibson to use this less expensive material. I'm not sure what either material actually is; I suppose I always thought it was some kind of synthetic. Such things have never figured into my guitar buying, so I've never really paid much attention. So what is pearloid and mother of pearl and when did Gibson switch over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitArtMan Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Mother of Pearl comes from some sort of sea shell - I'm not sure which one. Mother of Toilet seat (pearloid/ivoroid) is plastic. Gibson has prety much always used both. For instance Les Paul standards from the '50 have pearloid/ivoroid inlays, Les Paul Customs have mother of pearl. My guess is that Gibson used pearloid on the lower cost guitars and real MOP on the more expensive guitars, but that's just a guess. Heritage opted to use MOP on everything. I can't wait to hear the debate on which one sounds better... ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCovach Posted November 25, 2007 Author Share Posted November 25, 2007 I did find this link on MOP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_pearl I'm thinking of complaints I've heard on the LP reissues that they do not use MOP, and that got me wondering about all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitArtMan Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I did find this link on MOP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_pearl I'm thinking of complaints I've heard on the LP reissues that they do not use MOP, and that got me wondering about all this. Well unless it's a Les Paul Custom they never used MOP in the first place so the complaint is not valid. It's very common to see LPs from the '50/'60s with shrinking perloid inlays that are lifting. I know there were some complaints about the color of the pearloid inlays on some of the LP RIs. The inlay was gree colored and didn't look right at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydog Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Mother of Pearl comes from some sort of sea shell - I'm not sure which one. MOTS comes only from one mollusk: The Australian Bearded Clam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersteel Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Yeah! I heard the pieces had to be shaved before they are used. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitArtMan Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 MOTS comes only from one mollusk: The Australian Bearded Clam. Hmmm... I always wondered why my Les Paul smelled like... oh never mind. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Bearded clams, eh?! I have learned the darndest things at this site! Gibson also uses abalone on a few of its high end Custom Shop models. The LP Elegant comes to mind. (Please don't tell me that abalone have facial hair!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazwell Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Speaking of Gibson and "pearloid", what is the deal with those ugly and I mean ugly green colored pearloid inlays they use particularly (exclusively?) on their newer LP standard models? Are they green because they are harvested from the shells of a young "pearloid" creatures? I imagine that is what their marketing people would love us to think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi John, A topic dear to my heart. "Pearloid" has traditionally been a product made from ground up mother-of-pearl mixed with a polymer (plastic) of any number of varieties. I know of no synthetic material that has the light reflection properties of mollusk made "pearl." Gibson no longer uses 'pearloid' but uses either real MOP or a faux 'pearloid" made from acrylic (a plastic). Just this weekend, I fit a new bone nut to my friend's "57 VOS Gold-top Les Paul." It does not have either MOP or 'Pearloid.' It has inlays made with a swirled plastic to give it a mottled MOP/Pearloid appearance. His inlays of this plastic are very different than the acrylic inlays in my 2001 Gibson SG standard and my 2005 Les Paul Standard Premium Plus - I was surprised to see 2 different formulations of plastic from Gibson. All of them look terrible. None of them have any 'pearlescent" attributes, they are dull and quite clearly look like plastic. My custom Gibson SJ-200 has real MOP inlays, you can see the difference from 25 yards away. One of the readers below insists that Gibson never used real MOP in anything other than LP Customs. I have only ever owned Les Paul Customs (1979, 1980) and these had real MOP. Again, you can see the pearlescent, light reflecting/scattering effects of real MOP from far away. I've never seen a real 50's "standard" so I cannot refute the point. The Heritage 150s and 157s have real MOP and, again, there is no mistakiing the real deal. In the end, I am wholly unsatisified with both my Gibson SG and Les Paul Standard, simply because of the cheap plastic inlays. A terrible shame for Gibson and further, deeper ruination of their legacy. Cheers, Cryoman PS. I'd like to chat with others on the topic of nut materials. I've replaced plastic/Corian nuts on 7 guitars (5 Gibsons, 2 Heritages) these past 2 weeks with camel bone that cost $2.50 per blank. No rocket science involved. They look better, they sound better, all 7 guitars have better actions, no "chink" when tuning, no intonation problems..... I think I understand why plastic/Corian/Micarta is being used (namely, it can be machined/worked without hand labor, bone needs more human attention...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydog Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Cryoman: What's your source for the camel bone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazwell Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I ain't cryoman but I was checking into this a few weeks ago, You get the camel bone from Hong Kong via E-Bay http://cgi.ebay.com/10-FOR-GIBSON-LES-PAUL...6QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazwell Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 So no one here has ever seen or heard of the green faux pearloid trapezoid inlays that Gibson is putting in there newer LP Standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCovach Posted November 26, 2007 Author Share Posted November 26, 2007 Thanks Cryoman--great info. Do you know when Gibson started changing the materials? Did this begin with the Norlin era or was this after the new owners took over in the 80s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Yes. That's my source (above - Ebay) for the camel bone nut blanks. Very good qualiity, 8 of 10 nearly perfect in consistency. I ordered another 10 blanks last night. What a difference a bone nut makes. I "demo-ed" the difference between the "57 VOS Les Paul" nut from Gibson with the new bone nut I made to my friend by dropping them from about 12" height onto the bench top. The difference in sound as they hit the bench is amazing. The bone sounds dense, musical, rings... the plastic is dull, sounds like plastic.... no ring. It's a clue to the difference it can make. Cheers, Cryoman PS. I'm willing to help anyone interested in details of how to replace their Gibson or Heritage nuts with these camel bone nuts. I can send photos or e-mail with tips I learned from doing. It's pretty easy (although a little scary at first). You've love your results. I'll even loan you my nut files.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi John, I'm sorry, I don't know the history of changes at Gibson relative to the materials for inlays. I had those 2 Customs during the Norlin era (paid about $750 to $825 for them, as I recall, GAWD, why did I ever think I need to sell...!!) and then left my love of guitars for 15 plus years.... somewhere in the middle Gibson made changes. Others will know better than I. Cryoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersteel Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 PS. I'm willing to help anyone interested in details of how to replace their Gibson or Heritage nuts with these camel bone nuts. I can send photos or e-mail with tips I learned from doing. It's pretty easy (although a little scary at first). You've love your results. I'll even loan you my nut files.... I'd be interested in that. I was looking closely at my H150CM-LW and H575 last night, and, well, the nut jobs are terrible! The slots are cut too low on my 575 (especially on the high-E string), and the slots aren't spaced correctly on the 150. Sloppily done; how they can let it out the door like that, I don't know. Heritage makes a fine instrument, but, to me, they always miss the last 5% needed to make it an outstanding instrument. Off my soap box now. Anyway. I was looking at nuts from Stewart-McDonald; they have several varieties: Tusq, Graphtec, Bone, etc. Some of them come pre-slotted, which I think would make it easier. I really don't want to send them back to Heritage; I think it's time I learned how to do it myself. However, I'm afraid of f*&%$ng up my guitars. I already have Dan Erlwine's book; maybe I need to order the videos & tools as well. Christmas IS coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I can't take for granted others capabilities, desire, or risk aversion relative to working on their pricey guitars, BUT it's pretty easy to do. The trick is really to have the nut files (about $70 for a set). In 7 nuts that I've replaced, I've used the old nut (removed nut) as the template to do initial shaping (simply traced with a 5mm lead pencil the old nut against the new blank), then again used the old nut to determine/set my string spacing by clampling together in the vice to make my initial cuts with a razor saw. A work-vice, an Exacto "razor saw," a hack saw for initial / rough cutting of the blank, a fine-medium bastard file for shaping and then 320, 600 and 1200 grit sandpapers and then the nut files are the tools I used. I "snuck up" on the 1st of them (about 1.5 hours). The last one I did took about 20 minutes start to finish and it is very nice. I used liquid hide glue to glue them back in after playing them for a day and deciding I like them. Jump in, the waters fine.... Cheers, Cryoman. PS. Most luthiers/repairmen charge between $50 and $75 per nut. If you replace just 2, you've paid for all your tools. I'll post some photos tonight to help "motivate." Also, there is a more extensive article on this work from Dan Erlewine on the www.stewmac.com website. It actually has better detail than this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I've been thinking about why Gibson and Heritage (and Martin, Fender, et al) are using synthetics. The plastic / Corian, etc nuts can be injected molded, even extruded in some cases, to nearly perfect final shape. The nuts then get glued into the guitar and the PLEK or other router machine whacks out the string slots. No touch labor at all. The bone cannot be extruded or molded. It has to start from a blank and then be shaped mechanicallly. CNC machines can do this certainly, BUT bone is brittle and amorphous (and therefore unpredictable). It can chip or even shatter under a CNC machine that does not have the closed loop feedback of a human watching the behavior of the material. (I chipped one of my attempts with the just the slightest twist of my nut chisel and had to start over...) The bone nut means 20 to 60 minutes of human, semi-skilled labor. That has to add $50 to $75 cost to each guitar. Better for a guitar company to pocket that kinda money... Cheers, Cryoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitArtMan Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I've been thinking about why Gibson and Heritage (and Martin, Fender, et al) are using synthetics. The plastic / Corian, etc nuts can be injected molded, even extruded in some cases, to nearly perfect final shape. The nuts then get glued into the guitar and the PLEK or other router machine whacks out the string slots. No touch labor at all. The bone cannot be extruded or molded. It has to start from a blank and then be shaped mechanicallly. CNC machines can do this certainly, BUT bone is brittle and amorphous (and therefore unpredictable). It can chip or even shatter under a CNC machine that does not have the closed loop feedback of a human watching the behavior of the material. (I chipped one of my attempts with the just the slightest twist of my nut chisel and had to start over...) The bone nut means 20 to 60 minutes of human, semi-skilled labor. That has to add $50 to $75 cost to each guitar. Better for a guitar company to pocket that kinda money... Cheers, Cryoman Some of the higher end Heritages do use bone nuts. My 535 special came from the factory with a bone nut, as did the 20th anniversary models. I'm sure the more expensive guitars like the Eagles, etc. also have bone nuts. As for the Plek machine making a perfect nut, that has not been the case at all with my three pleked Heritages. All three had issues with the nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersteel Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 As for the Plek machine making a perfect nut, that has not been the case at all with my three pleked Heritages. All three had issues with the nut. AFAIK, the Plek machine merely shapes/levels/crowns the frets; it doesn't do anything to the nut. I think the nuts are still shaped/slotted/fitted by hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitArtMan Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 AFAIK, the Plek machine merely shapes/levels/crowns the frets; it doesn't do anything to the nut. I think the nuts are still shaped/slotted/fitted by hand. Here's a video of a Plek in action. It does indeed cut the nut slots. I don't understand why the Pleked guitars I have played have all had some issues with them - but they have. I think that kind of precision and attention to detail needs to be applied before the frets are installed (as well as after) or the Plek machine may be being used as a band aid. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've played many guitars that were not Pleked that played as well, and in many cases better, than the Pleked guitars I've played. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazwell Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Wow thanks for the link GuitArtMan.....truly amazing. I never pictured the initial phase being done with the strings on, but of course it makes sense. Just goes to show what kind of investment you need nowadays to compete in the in the higher end guitar market-just for one process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Well... I never said the PLEK machine can cut a perfect nut. I did say that plastic can be injected molded and/or extruded to near perfect final shape. The PLEK machine can only cut as programmed and probably both Gibson and Heritage have the PLEK cut the nut conservatively to fit within a range of action as measured at 1st, 7th, 12th fret, as well as for 2, perhaps even 3 different guages of strings, etc. Obviously these production plastic nuts have string cuts much larger than a precision, hand-filed nut made to your particular guage of strings and set-up/action. All my Gibson & Heritage nuts sucked and "chink"-ed when tuning (and hence my having replaced them with bone...) I can't comment on the high end Heritages having bone nuts or not. My 535 certainly came with Corian (which sure looks like bleach bone until you remove it and then break it...). I think more guitars have plastic or Corian or Micarta nuts than have bone. Nice video on the PLEK machine in action. Cheers, Cryoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryoman Posted November 27, 2007 Share Posted November 27, 2007 Back on the topic of Mother of Pearl... Here is side-by-side photo of my Heritage H-150CM and my Gibson Les Paul Standard Premium Plus. You can clearly see what is MOP and what is not in terms of neck, trapezoid inlays. Note the Gibson logo inlay.... once again, you can clearly tell what is MOP, what is not. Cheers, Cryoman http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd302/cryoman_bucket/heritageh-150cm002.jpg[/img] Full sized photo here: http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd302/c...eh-150cm002.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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