Is hand made really better than factory made

[H]

"Vive" la difference....not "viva". "Vive la difference" is French, "viva" is Spanish.

Unless it's a Vauxhall Viva, in which case it's a crappy 1970s British car

[Guest mgoetting]

A big difference with the one man shops is that the buck stop with the luthier. You know exactly who did what. There is no anonymity.

 

Heritage is small enough that the same is true to a degree, particularly with custom ordered guitars.

[Guest mgoetting]

Pictorial response... (again this is in a good tongue & cheek nature, BUT......

 

I have never seen a better top on a semi than these one on mine...

 

 

OR a better one on this one for that matter....

 

 

 

OMG! That's the best I've seen!

[Patrick]

Someone said earlier that whether handmade was better than machine made "Depends on the Factory, depends on the craftsman" or something to that effect. Someone else said "Factory is a great guitar; handmade gives tingles, and a feeling of magic and romance".

 

I think they're both right. I have a Chinese made Blueridge acoustic that is surprisingly well built and rivals the Martin models it's patterned after -but it doesn't elicit a sense of connection to another living biological unit. I mean craftsmen put a bit of themselves into their work, and that's part and parcel of the guitars we have from Heritage, or Gibson for that matter.

 

My dad was a tool and die maker. I got to work with him in his small business back in the 70's and 80's where we designed and built tooling primarily for the auto industry. Back then CNC was a relatively new technology. Much of the manufacturing simulation software used today wasn't generally available back then. It was primarily left to the die maker to spot potential issues with the designs, and compensate for designers lack of specific experience with the materials and geometries the final parts needed to conform to. Experience taught men like my dad how material was apt to flow, where cracks were likely to develop in parts, whether and how much spring-back was likely to be encountered, etc...

 

I expect luthiers would also develop a level of intuitive knowledge about the guitars they produce and similarly adjust for differences in wood density, grain, or species. Maybe it doesn't require the level of skill of a die maker, but I believe never-the-less that it can make a difference.

 

My dad worked until he was 72. One day he just knew he wasn't going to be able to finish a job he'd just gotten back from the designer. So he called up his customer and sent it back, along with the design. Later that day, he got a call from a a gentleman that wanted to buy his shop. The shop had been available for sale for several years before that but no interest. He sold it that day, and passed away 6 months later.

 

I never disposed of his personal tools even though I'll never build tooling again. To me, they're an extension or memory of what was in him. So for guys like me, the knowledge that an instrument had the personal attention of a master craftsman means something.

 

I believe you have summed up why we all prefer to buy the guitars we cherish so much from Heritage. Your Dad, may God rest his soul, was the epitome of old school craftsmanship. There's an allure to that which is invaluable. As I've said all along, the value of a particular guitar, to me anyway, is a direct correlation to the joy of owning it . . . and that bares a direct correlation to the people and the heritage of the people making it. If I wanted to, I could have ordered a custom arch top from any one of the top boutique builders in the country. I chose Aaron Cowles much for the reasons you stated above. The instruments I had made from Aaron are every bit as wonderful as the ones I would have gotten from Bob Benedetto or John Monteleone or Jim Triggs or Mark Lacey . . .or any other builder for that matter. To me, it's much more about which guitar would a person want to own, than it is about who makes the best guitar. I found it amusing that some would post photos of their guitars, beautiful as they are, as a rebuttal to my comments, which they believed to be statements that Heritage couldn't get great wood... (maybe I should rephrase "Heritage couldn't get great wood").

 

It's unfortunate that every time someone starts this same old "who is better" dialog, it turns out to be a comparison of a company that some love against a company that some hate. As stated by many in this thread, we can get great guitars from the independent boutique builder, from the smaller factory type builders . . or from the mega sized Asian builders.

[Patrick]

A big difference with the one man shops is that the buck stop with the luthier. You know exactly who did what. There is no anonymity.

 

Heritage is small enough that the same is true to a degree, particularly with custom ordered guitars.

 

While that is exactly correct, I'm not sure how it is relevant to the OP's question.?.?

[pcovers]

As I've said all along, the value of a particular guitar, to me anyway, is a direct correlation to the joy of owning it . . . and that bares a direct correlation to the people and the heritage of the people making it.

 

People can elaborate till the end of time, but in the end it is all about what you just said. The warm and fuzzy, the "I'd like to believe that..." positions, the "it just imparts a difference" perspectives....all of the qualitative opinions and beliefs are centered around "the joy of owning" that apparently is not present for some in owing a guitar of equal or better empirical quality, but lacks some emotional connection to something that one can attach to an inanimate object. That is not a bad thing. We likely all do it at some point.

 

There is no fact based argument for saying a one man or small factory shop makes a superior product to a factory. It just is not so, that is if the quality measures are centered around empirical attributes. However, where the joy of ownership is tied to a feeling or a "connection" between a feeling and a brand or product.....well, throw the arguments away from there on. That is the joy of ownership where the joy is significantly supported by emotion and connection.

 

There is no debating "better" when that enters the equation......and on guitar forums, it always does. I really like my H140. I am sure some of that is associated with the history, though it is still clearly a great guitar with or without the story.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I have to disagree with you that Gibson custom shops have the best tops, I have seen pictures of Heritage tops that are superior to anything I have seen on any Gibson custom shop guitar, and I promise you that I am not been overly loyal to Heritage.

 

It is certainly true that the primary purpose of wood in relationship to guitar manufacturing is to produce tone, but if you can get it beautiful alongside the tone, is that not a desirable thing? John's (Kuz) 535 in wineburst to me just has to be the most beautiful looking mix of timber and finish I have ever seen. When you compare what John probably paid for that guitar compared to what other premium brand manufacturers such as Gibson and PRS would have charged for a custom order of that magnitude I think it is a living testament to the guys at Heritage that they give a wonderful product and not use the excuse of AAAAA or private stock for inflating the price beyond reality. The actual cost of private stock timber or AAAAA maple is probably $50 - $75 a top more than normal, great for profit margins, don't you all think? Same body's, same necks, same hardware, just the suckers paying exorbitant prices for something no better other than the maple cap.

 

Mark . . . my comment was that the Les Paul type guitars coming out of the Custom Shop generally have the best tops of any/all other Les Paul type guitars. Of course we can find some Heritage 150s that are better than some Gibsons, just like we cam find some Tokai tops that are better than some Heritage's and you can find some clones that are better than them all. I'm talking generalizations. Also, keep in mind, that the Historic Collection Reissue ES335 looks like it does because it's supposed to be a replication of the ones produced in 1959 and 1963. There were no 335s built in that era with tops as beautiful as John's wine burst. Heritage is going for something altogether different and they've nailed it wonderfully. The same is true with the Les Pauls. Ever seen a reissue 1958 or 1959 or 1960 Plain Top? They're pretty much a boring and totally unflamed top. But an exact replication of the originals.

[pcovers]

 

Forget the thread topic......I want that guitar!

[pcovers]

 

 

 

......and that one!

 

Just those two. I'd be quite happy.

[Patrick]

"Vive" la difference....not "viva". "Vive la difference" is French, "viva" is Spanish.

 

Uh-oh . . . where are we going with this? I seem to remember this from another thread Actually, shouldn't it be . . . . . "Vive le difference" . . . as "la" is also Spanish?

[Guest mgoetting]

While that is exactly correct, I'm not sure how it is relevant to the OP's question.?.?

 

 

It's relevant in that "hand made" invokes the aura of personal responsibility for the work done. Hand made implies that the craftsman has the liberty to say when he is satisfied with the job. Robots do what they are set up to do.

 

In a sense Detroit hand made the cars until the robot revolution a few decades ago. Each bolt was fastened and each rivit placed by a human. We know that QA was loose at times. The final product was a hand made factory car.

 

There are relevancies.

[JeffB]

Uh-oh . . . where are we going with this? I seem to remember this from another thread Actually, shouldn't it be . . . . . "Vive le difference" . . . as "la" is also Spanish?

la=feminine, le=masculine.

so therefore...???

but anyway I think its normally miss quoted as it refers to masculine and feminine differences but has come to mean the differences between just about anything. As in "I like that festering scab better than that cankerous sore, Oh well vive la difference(celebrate the difference)".

 

Really should be "I dont understand that woman/women, but I love her/them. Oh well, vive la difference"

 

I could be wrong. I have been about things I was sure of before.

[Patrick]

It's relevant in that "hand made" invokes the aura of personal responsibility for the work done. Hand made implies that the craftsman has the liberty to say when he is satisfied with the job. Robots do what they are set up to do.

 

In a sense Detroit hand made the cars until the robot revolution a few decades ago. Each bolt was fastened and each rivit placed by a human. We know that QA was loose at times. The final product was a hand made factory car.

 

There are relevancies.

 

Ok Mark. So now I better understand the reason for your post. But, it's an inaccurate comparison, therefore irrelevant. Even in the largest of guitar factories, there are no robots making guitars. True, in the largest of factories, some of the process has been more automated .. such as the CNC type milling, routing and carving of the wood. But, for the most part, the assembly and finishing is still largely a "hands on" process. Again, it's really a two sided argument. Is the end result of a piece of MOP or abalone that is hand cut by some skilled barefoot craftsmen/women in a hut with dirt floors in Vietnam going to provide you with a better or more accurate cutout than a computer guided laser cut done in Ohio, USA? I don't think so. But, which one would you want? I would opt for the hand cut "crafted" product.

[Patrick]

Unless it's a Vauxhall Viva, in which case it's a crappy 1970s British car

 

Weren't most 1970s era British cars "crappy" . . . as were most 1970s ear USA cars?

[JeffB]

When Im at home and playing my guitars through my amps without the clutter of drums, bass, vocals, keyboards and other guitars, subtle nuances matter. They are bought into focus more sharply and beg to be analyzed.

p/up height, fret size, action fit and finish all capture my attention. The bloom of a note, the way one speaker cab accentuates mids another thunk and grind. The way a tung sol 12ax7 incrementally changes the sound compared to the EH12ax7 or the mesa SPAX. How one variant of a tube screamer type pedal has clarity and how another nicely compresses the top end. This all matters in the insular confines of my music room.

Then I go out and do a gig with the singers cheap Yamaha acoustic and I scarcely notice a thing about it other than if its in tune or not and that it feels pretty good to play.

I gigged with the cheapest Yamaha electric for a while. A Yamaha Pacifica 112. All I really new about it while playing was that it felt pretty good and it sounded fine.

Took me a year to realize that some one had scratched a 3inch anarchy sign on it behind the bridge.

A good guitar is a good guitar. I dont want to rule anything out because of a preconceived idea about manufacture and miss out on a great little musical device that allows me to join in with other people and play music.

[rjsanders]

la=feminine, le=masculine.

so therefore...???

but anyway I think its normally miss quoted as it refers to masculine and feminine differences but has come to mean the differences between just about anything. As in "I like that festering scab better than that cankerous sore, Oh well vive la difference(celebrate the difference)".

 

Really should be "I dont understand that woman/women, but I love her/them. Oh well, vive la difference"

 

...

 

and it looks like difference is feminine, so indeed la difference

 

most of what i know i learned from Bill Chapin when he had his shop here. reg'lar guru. some luthiers have great expertise in areas such as inlays, some in electronics, some in wood, some in hardware. Bill covers everything (father an electrical engineer, grandfather cabinetmaker, Bill a fine musician). so, from him i learned when not to use birdseye or spalting or some kinds or extremes of flame to get a particular sonic result. other luthiers (he won't diss anyone) are less sensitive to these & other aspects. = plus for some luthiers, minus for others.

 

in some factories a guitar will go from expert to expert in these & other areas, = plus for some factories. mass-produced guitars are not necesarily checked for sound quality from stage to stage, = minus for some products of some factories. then there are QA and warranty/satisfaction issues.

 

so, it depends.

[Ray]

Personally, I don’t care whether a guitar is hand made or not. The only thing that matters to me is that the guitar is well built with all the attributes that I look for in an instrument such as sound quality. There are lots of great guitar builders around today – some predominantly machine based and others hand made. Method (i.e. machine based or not) of production is not important to me. If it sounds fantastic, I will be interested regardless of where it was made.

 

It is a different matter, altogether, if one collects guitars or prefers guitars that hold their value. In this case, one has to consider other attributes such as brand name etc.

 

I buy Heritage not because their guitars are hand made. I buy Heritage because they are fantastic looking instruments that are well made, handles well and sounds wonderful to my ears and heart and I play from my heart.

[Kuz]

I believe you have summed up why we all prefer to buy the guitars we cherish so much from Heritage. Your Dad, may God rest his soul, was the epitome of old school craftsmanship. There's an allure to that which is invaluable. As I've said all along, the value of a particular guitar, to me anyway, is a direct correlation to the joy of owning it . . . and that bares a direct correlation to the people and the heritage of the people making it. If I wanted to, I could have ordered a custom arch top from any one of the top boutique builders in the country. I chose Aaron Cowles much for the reasons you stated above. The instruments I had made from Aaron are every bit as wonderful as the ones I would have gotten from Bob Benedetto or John Monteleone or Jim Triggs or Mark Lacey . . .or any other builder for that matter. To me, it's much more about which guitar would a person want to own, than it is about who makes the best guitar. I found it amusing that some would post photos of their guitars, beautiful as they are, as a rebuttal to my comments, which they believed to be statements that Heritage couldn't get great wood... (maybe I should rephrase "Heritage couldn't get great wood").

 

It's unfortunate that every time someone starts this same old "who is better" dialog, it turns out to be a comparison of a company that some love against a company that some hate. As stated by many in this thread, we can get great guitars from the independent boutique builder, from the smaller factory type builders . . or from the mega sized Asian builders.

 

Patrick,

 

I think that we are both losing something in communicating via web that probably would be crystal clear in person.

 

I thought you said, "those out of the [Gibby] Custom Shop is almost always better than ALL OTHERS. Indisputable. Period . . . .end of sentence!!" so I posted a couple of pics where I said I have never seen better tops on any Semi-hollows.

 

It was just point out that your comments about Gibby is "disputable" to me.

 

I don't understand why you took exception to what I said or how I upset you.

 

I was just challenging your point, maybe I didn't understand your statement. No problems over here.

[mark555]

I'm inclined to agree with the "depends on the craftsman/factory" point of view. My Paulman strat was the product of two guys - Phil Boot and the late Paul McNab. While they could build guitars from the raw wood, they found that a lot of customers wanted variations on strats and teles. This led them to looking for a company that could supply them with blank bodies and necks that were made to their specifications and quality. They eventually settled on Warmoth. My strat has a one-piece swamp ash body, bird's-eye/flamed maple neck, Brazilian rosewood board with abalone dots and Joe Barden pickups. The guitar was a 40th birthday present to myself and cost £1300. To get such an instrument for such a (relatively!) low price would not have been possible if they were building from scratch. Needless to say I was very happy with the result!

 

I knew Paul McNab pretty well, he did the set ups on my guitars for years, his work was excellent. He could carve you a superb guitar by hand from a block of wood. He never really got the recognition that he would have got had he been an American from California, his work easily matched any of these guys who ask big money for their stuff, and he really did hand build. A sad loss to local musicians here in Huddersfield - he was also a local gigging musician playing Bass in a couple of bands, and he would always help you out when you needed him to.

[mark555]

Patrick,

 

I think that we are both losing something in communicating via web that probably would be crystal clear in person.

 

I thought you said, "those out of the [Gibby] Custom Shop is almost always better than ALL OTHERS. Indisputable. Period . . . .end of sentence!!" so I posted a couple of pics where I said I have never seen better tops on any Semi-hollows.

 

It was just point out that your comments about Gibby is "disputable" to me.

 

I don't understand why you took exception to what I said or how I upset you.

 

I was just challenging your point, maybe I didn't understand your statement. No problems over here.

 

John, I also understood Patrick's post in the same vein.

[barrymclark]

I think the real problem is in the question. The flaw in it, for me, is that a factory doesn't make anything. It is a tool for a craftsman or many craftsmen. Without craftsmen, a factory is just a building of no importance. A CNC doesn't mean a craftsman needs a lower level craftsmanship but merely a different skill set to achieve the same ends. At one point, I am sure this same argument was being carried on about that new technology called screws. The technology doesn't change the craft, only the craftsman.

[pcovers]

I think the real problem is in the question. The flaw in it, for me, is that a factory doesn't make anything. It is a tool for a craftsman or many craftsmen. Without craftsmen, a factory is just a building of no importance. A CNC doesn't mean a craftsman needs a lower level craftsmanship but merely a different skill set to achieve the same ends. At one point, I am sure this same argument was being carried on about that new technology called screws. The technology doesn't change the craft, only the craftsman.

 

Barry, you make a great point; but I would add another flaw at least as significant....it suggests that factory and handmade are concepts that everyone agrees on. They're not. So as long as there is no clear cut line that we can all agree to that delineates "factory" from "handmade" it's all words passing over head with the appearance of rational discussion.

[barrymclark]

Barry, you make a great point; but I would add another flaw at least as significant....it suggests that factory and handmade are concepts that everyone agrees on. They're not. So as long as there is no clear cut line that we can all agree to that delineates "factory" from "handmade" it's all words passing over head with the appearance of rational discussion.

Agreed. For me, a factory is more of a method of manufacture than building. Not necessarily a specific method but the intent is aimed at high production rates but may or may not be at the cost of quality. It can be several stations of craftsmen that carries the process from cradle to grave or even stations of people specializing in specific points in the manufacturing process. These factories can produce products that easily argued as being handmade.

 

For the sake of this discussion, I move that 'handmade' is to mean that no aspect of manufacture is done without a mindful human eye with no regard to what tools were used in those aspects. Otherwise, we can get mired in an argument over power tools versus human powered tools. Can we agree on that much?

[Guest HRB853370]

What does "hand made" mean? No CNC machines? No pattern tracing machines? No power tools? No tools at all? Seriously what does hand made mean? Is there a notion that somebody actually makes a guitar with his bear hands without the use of tools? That's ridiculous. Is a hole drilled with an auger better than a hole driller with a power drill? Are both better than a hole drilled with -gulp- CNC carver? Is a fingerboard planed with a hand plane better than a fingerboard planed by radiusing block Are both better than a fingerboard planed by -gulp- a CNC machine?

 

Better tools allow a good craftsman to do a better job - plain and simple. Most of your small boutique builder are using CNC machines to do the rough work: Tom Anderson, Don Grosh, John Suhr, Terry McInturff, Ron Thorn, Bill Collings, Olsen guitars, PRS, the list could go on and on. Theses guys all use CNC machines, but there is also an incredible amount of hand work involved. The finial fit and finish and assembly is done by hand. The notion that non-hand made means some giant robotic factory is absurd. Sure there maybe factories cranking out guitars like that overseas, but as you already pointed out they did a good job. One thing I see in the small guys ( can't say I look at the cheap import) is consistency. A TA standard neck is going to feel like a TA standard neck. And fit and finish and set up will be flawless. I've visited Tom Anderson's shop and taken the Taylor Guitars tour several times. Both these guys use a lot of automation and hand work combined and turn out some great guitars.

 

I think quality materials with quality assembly is far more important than being "hand made" - whatever that means.

 

Well said Guitarartman! Even Gibson does some of their final assembly and finishing by hand. They may not have a "Kate" there doing sanding by hand, but there are hands and humans involved. I would rather buy an American Made guitar, even an inexpensive one, over a Korean, Taiwan or Chinese made guitar. Not doubting the quality that comes out of those countries, but heck if I am going to support their economy. Even if Heritage totally automated their processes, with the only human element being final assembly or inspection, I would still buy their products instead of a major foreign manufacturer!

[Guest HRB853370]

Close, machined is consistent and handmade may or may not have flaws.

 

I think the discriminating feature of handmade is the degree to which the human eye will go to find, weigh, and judge aesthetic flaws in the materials and adjust in real time. The machine makes the generalized assessment and does not work to correct or enhance.

 

I will take any guitar, no matter the construction, if it meets my eyes', hands', and ears' standard of acceptance.

 

Machined is consistent all right, and can be consistently out of spec too. When the Road Worn Strat first came out, my LMS had a few and they told me that they had to put shims where the neck meets that body, on each one. What does that point to? It points to the fact that the Mexican Robots popping out these guitars were not set to proper spec, so each run from that robot produced a consistently out of spec guitar! With Heritage, there is little chance of that happening. With all the care and attention that goes into the 5 or 6 that are made each day, there is a very miniscule chance that something seriously wrong will make it out the door.