New Heritage Owner!

[aGuitarSolo]

50 minutes ago, Steiner said:

I've never met a guitar (any brand) that didn't improve from an upgraded harness.  Heritage is no different.

I honestly didn't know that. Thank you.

[TalismanRich]

Upgrading the harness will do certain things depending on the parts used.   You can get pots with different tapers, which means that how quickly or smoothly the sound changes will be different with a 15% audio taper vs a 30% taper or a linear taper.    What these numbers mean is that for a 500K pot,  a 15% will measure 75K ohms when turned 50%.   A 30% taper will measure 150K ohms at the mid point.  Linear taper means it will be 250K when turned half way.   Since volume is a logarithmic function (because we hear that way),  the use of a log measurement is supposed to make it more like what you hear.  Turn it up from  50% to 100% and it sounds twice as loud. 

The capacitor value will make a huge difference in the brightness.   In the typical humbucker setup,  a .022uF cap is used.   The higher the value, the darker the sound as you roll off the control.  You might even want to have different values, like .015 for a neck pickup vs .022 for the bridge.   I really don't hear a difference between the Vishay metal film caps that Heritage uses and an oil filled cap.   The Vishay caps are good units.  

If you can solder, then it's not hard to make up a harness.   I made a template out of a piece of cardboard, and soldered everything except the pickup and switch on the cardboard.   Then I mounted the pots, connected the caps and ground wire and installed it.  This is the result.

Finally there's vintage wiring scheme vs modern wiring scheme.   You can read how these differ lots of places.   Seymour Duncan has wiring diagrams for each type.   https://www.seymourduncan.com/resources/pickup/wiring-diagrams

For Heritage guitars, you want short shafted pots.  

That's all for now.   It's a fairly easy job assuming you can solder.

 

[aGuitarSolo]

9 hours ago, TalismanRich said:

Upgrading the harness will do certain things depending on the parts used.   You can get pots with different tapers, which means that how quickly or smoothly the sound changes will be different with a 15% audio taper vs a 30% taper or a linear taper.    What these numbers mean is that for a 500K pot,  a 15% will measure 75K ohms when turned 50%.   A 30% taper will measure 150K ohms at the mid point.  Linear taper means it will be 250K when turned half way.   Since volume is a logarithmic function (because we hear that way),  the use of a log measurement is supposed to make it more like what you hear.  Turn it up from  50% to 100% and it sounds twice as loud. 

The capacitor value will make a huge difference in the brightness.   In the typical humbucker setup,  a .022uF cap is used.   The higher the value, the darker the sound as you roll off the control.  You might even want to have different values, like .015 for a neck pickup vs .022 for the bridge.   I really don't hear a difference between the Vishay metal film caps that Heritage uses and an oil filled cap.   The Vishay caps are good units.  

If you can solder, then it's not hard to make up a harness.   I made a template out of a piece of cardboard, and soldered everything except the pickup and switch on the cardboard.   Then I mounted the pots, connected the caps and ground wire and installed it.  This is the result.

Finally there's vintage wiring scheme vs modern wiring scheme.   You can read how these differ lots of places.   Seymour Duncan has wiring diagrams for each type.   https://www.seymourduncan.com/resources/pickup/wiring-diagrams

For Heritage guitars, you want short shafted pots.  

That's all for now.   It's a fairly easy job assuming you can solder.

 

That is incredible. I had already decided I needed to start over but I didn't know where to begin. Thanks to you, I have a roadmap. I didn't even know where to start to ask about this.

I appreciate this so much. I don't think I've ever read a single posting anywhere on any website that compares to how helpful your posting has been.

I can't thank you enough.

One question that might answer itself once I get going but I don't see the input jack so I assume it doesn't lead into this compartment, is that right?

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by aGuitarSolo

[Steiner]

I started with RSGuitarWorks.  I stopped using them when they forgot how to make an H-575 harness; they wanted to charge for a custom assembly even though I know they've produced them in the past.
The H-150 harness is the same as the Les Paul's.  They'll get you going with schematics.  Drop your volume to the 5-8 level and lower the tone as needed.  The change is eye opening.

I don't hear a lowering of volume as much as a cleaning up with the volume pot.  The pot values make a huge difference in the circuit between the pickups and amplifier.  A good harness should allow you two or three useful tones without adjusting the amp.  RS recognized that and created a better mousetrap.

[aGuitarSolo]

1 minute ago, Steiner said:

I started with RSGuitarWorks.  I stopped using them when they forgot how to make an H-575 harness; they wanted to charge for a custom assembly even though I know they've produced them in the past.
The H-150 harness is the same as the Les Paul's.  They'll get you going with schematics.  Drop your volume to the 5-8 level and lower the tone as needed.  The change is eye opening.

I don't hear a lowering of volume as much as a cleaning up with the volume pot.  The pot values make a huge difference in the circuit between the pickups and amplifier.  A good harness should allow you two or three useful tones without adjusting the amp.  RS recognized that and created a better mousetrap.

Fantastic. Thank you so much. I'm convinced for sure. I am going to unsolder the mess I have today.

[TalismanRich]

1 hour ago, Steiner said:

I don't hear a lowering of volume as much as a cleaning up with the volume pot.  The pot values make a huge difference in the circuit between the pickups and amplifier.  A good harness should allow you two or three useful tones without adjusting the amp.  RS recognized that and created a better mousetrap.

That's true if you're running with a lot of gain.    If you're plugged into a Princeton Reverb or a Heritage Patriot with a clean signal,  it just lowers the volume.    That's more a function of the amp.     But lowering the volume on most guitars will also tend to get darker, which is why some people put in a treble bleed circuit.   It adds a bit of treble back into the signal.

There's a pretty cool worksheet called GuitarFreak that will show how the changes in capacitors and pots will change the frequency response of a guitar pickup.

http://www.jocidapark.com.au/circuits/GuitarFreak_6_41_161016.ods

You can run it in the Free LIbre Office spreadsheet.    There's also an Excel version.

http://www.jocidapark.com.au/circuits/GuitarFreak_6_40_210816.xlsm

 

[Steiner]

Granted, most of the amps burning here are 60's Marshall clones.  Even with the Marshall JTM 45, JTM 45-100,  Heritage Colonial or Fender Vibro King, I lower the volume and drop the tone to clean up the sound.  Perhaps old habits die hard...  I prefer less treble most of the time.
I think you wrote about linear and logarithmic pots above.  Dave, from Ann Arbor Guitars, does a superb job discussing the difference.
There are 6 videos in all.  IMHO Well worth the time.  Here's #1:

 

[golferwave]

9 hours ago, aGuitarSolo said:

That is incredible. I had already decided I needed to start over but I didn't know where to begin. Thanks to you, I have a roadmap. I didn't even know where to start to ask about this.

I appreciate this so much. I don't think I've ever read a single posting anywhere on any website that compares to how helpful your posting has been.

I can't thank you enough.

One question that might answer itself once I get going but I don't see the input jack so I assume it doesn't lead into this compartment, is that right?

 

I didn't catch a picture of the outside of the input jack but if there is no jack plate then you have one of the barrel jacks. I would address that as well while you're changing everything else out.

[aGuitarSolo]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:19 PM, golferwave said:

I didn't catch a picture of the outside of the input jack but if there is no jack plate then you have one of the barrel jacks. I would address that as well while you're changing everything else out.

You are right and it has always been a problem (which is probably why the luthier who worked on this soldered it to the top of the tone pot). Can you point me in a direction as to how to go about changing the barrel  jack to one with a plate?. Maybe there is a kit for this?

In the time since I read your posting about, "Upgrading the harness will do certain things depending on the parts used...", I have been immersed in videos about pots, capacitors, shielding, and wiring. I had no idea there was so much to this but thanks to you, I am starting to get a clue.

[aGuitarSolo]

On 10/6/2023 at 8:19 PM, golferwave said:

I didn't catch a picture of the outside of the input jack but if there is no jack plate then you have one of the barrel jacks. I would address that as well while you're changing everything else out.

Sorry that I got a little confused about the reference to the earlier posting made by someone else. I don't know how to edit it so this is the best way I know how to fix it at this point. However, I really do want to learn how to go about changing out the input jack to one with a plate.

[golferwave]

46 minutes ago, aGuitarSolo said:

You are right and it has always been a problem (which is probably why the luthier who worked on this soldered it to the top of the tone pot). Can you point me in a direction as to how to go about changing the barrel  jack to one with a plate?. Maybe there is a kit for this?

In the time since I read your posting about, "Upgrading the harness will do certain things depending on the parts used...", I have been immersed in videos about pots, capacitors, shielding, and wiring. I had no idea there was so much to this but thanks to you, I am starting to get a clue.

 If you want to get rid of the barrel jack you can drill out the input jack hole with normal wood drill bits. When you have the hole to the proper size you will need to use a plastic or metal jack plate and drill pilot holes for the jack plate mounting screws. I use the Puretone input jacks. Check out youtube videos to help with this.

[Steiner]

10 hours ago, golferwave said:

 If you want to get rid of the barrel jack you can drill out the input jack hole with normal wood drill bits. When you have the hole to the proper size you will need to use a plastic or metal jack plate and drill pilot holes for the jack plate mounting screws. I use the Puretone input jacks. Check out youtube videos to help with this.

Perfect!  I see so much about wire gauge and transferring electrical energy.  When one thinks about it, you could use quad 0 wire gauge for your instrument and speaker leads but ultimately the connection between your jack and instrument cable is just a fraction of a square mm, smaller than pin point.  I've heard about these jacks but haven't seen them for sale.  Thank you golferwave!

https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Tone-Full-contact-Mounting-Hardware/dp/B0BXB73DT8?th=1

[golferwave]

3 hours ago, Steiner said:

Perfect!  I see so much about wire gauge and transferring electrical energy.  When one thinks about it, you could use quad 0 wire gauge for your instrument and speaker leads but ultimately the connection between your jack and instrument cable is just a fraction of a square mm, smaller than pin point.  I've heard about these jacks but haven't seen them for sale.  Thank you golferwave!

https://www.amazon.com/Pure-Tone-Full-contact-Mounting-Hardware/dp/B0BXB73DT8?th=1

They really are the ticket, and not much more expensive than a regular Switchcraft input jack.

[aGuitarSolo]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:05 AM, TalismanRich said:

Upgrading the harness will do certain things depending on the parts used. 

I would like to get your opinion on something. I was studying the various components and thinking how to put them together when I wondered if there might be an easier way for someone like me who has no prior knowledge in this subject.

I found the following kit:

Mojotone Solderless Les Paul Short Shaft Guitar Wiring Harness Manufacturer Part Number: Z4LES728 for $119.99. It includes 4 x CTS 500k vintage-taper pots, 1 x Switchcraft USA toggle switch, 1 x Switchcraft USA mono output jack and 2 x Mojo Tone Vitamin T oil-filled .022uf capacitors. (Sweetwater: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Z4LES728--mojo-tone-solderless-les-paul-wiring-harness-short-shaft)

By coincidence, I studied a video yesterday that compared 8 different capacitors. I had already concluded that I found the sound of the paper in oil .022uf to be most pleasing to my ear and I think that is what is in this kit.

Also, I will be drilling out the shaft where the barrel jack resides so I'll need a jack cover. Gibson Accessories Metal Jack Plate for Les Paul – Nickel Item ID: PRJP040 for $12.99 (Sweetwater https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PRJP040--gibson-accessories-jack-plate-nickel).

You were addressing the taper on the pots and (going by memory now) and saying that a logarithmic taper is more consistent with the way we hear changes in volume. Do the pots in this kit represent what you were recommending?

I really appreciate all that I've learned from you so far. Many thanks.

[Steiner]

I just checked RS Guitar.  They don't list Heritage any longer.  They used to list them.  Too much variation in hand built guitars???
I have no experience with Mojotone harnesses.  I would guess that if you call or email Sweetwater, they'll get you an answer.  The jack plate looks like the proper one.
Perhaps @TalismanRich will know and pipe in.

[TalismanRich]

I've never used the solderless setup,  I have been soldering since I raced slot cars in the 60s, so I have no fear of firing up the old iron.  Besides, I love the smell of smoking flux in the morning!?    I do like the way they have done their solder work.   My only concern would be if the holes and pots will line up exactly the same as your H-150.    GIbson uses as CNC to drill out the cavity, so they should all be exactly the same, within thousandths of an inch.   Heritage can use a template, but it may not measure exactly the same as Gibson.

My 157 has the Mojotone Vitamin T caps.   They are oil filled polypropylene/metal film caps.  The difference is that it's two actual layers, not a metal that has been vapor deposited on one side of a plastic film.   In that respect, they are close to a paper/metal film capacitor.  

The pots are stamped 500KBD  which tells me they are 20% audio taper 500K CTS 450G series which are excellent pots.   Not sure if they are std or low torque,   I have low torque pots in mine.   If you worry about hitting the knob and changing the volume, you probably want standard torque.   If you want to do swells, then low torque is easier to turn.   I've used both Mojotone's Pots and some from The Art Of Tone.   The H-157 has Mojo 500 pots.   I bought 8 along with a pair of the Vitamin T and Mojo Dijon capacitors years ago from Mojotone when I was at a guitar show in South Carolina.  I checked the pots and picked the closest 4 for resisitance.   I still have three in a bag downstairs.    The Dijon caps went in my H-535 when I rewired it with new Sheptone pickups.  It has TAOT pots.

My 157 has a black plastic jack plate.    The H-140 and Millennium LE both have barrel jacks.  I replaced the barrel jack in my H-140 after 30 years.   I was on Ebay, and bought 3 of them, so far after about 6 or 7 years, I've only used the first one.   I wouldn't switch it out for  a standard style jack as it requires drilling and not having the proper tools,  I'm sure to screw it up and wreck the job.   That's the same reason that the Seth Lovers that i got to put in my 157 are still on the shelf.   The route isn't deep enough for the long legged Seths.   I'm not taking a drill to the pickup cavity as I don't want the ultimate in "buckle rash" on the back.  

As for hearing the differences between a PIO, Oil filled Metal film and Poly/metal film, that's something you can decide for yourself.  There are some electrical differences in different types of construction,  things like ESR, inductance and voltage handling in addition to the capacitance.    I confess that I really can't tell the difference in good capacitors.   About the only way I could do that would to build a switching rig, start playing and have someone switch different caps in while I play.  In the tests that I've heard,  I hear more difference in the "performance" than the capacitor as long as the values are well matched.   Soldering in a capacitor,  then playing,  stopping and soldering another cap, playing again,  etc is not a reproducible process to me.   I would feel better if I could do 10 takes and have them all the same with one cap, then do 10 with another, mix them up and be able to pick them out.    Plus, I can touch the tone control on the amp and make 50 times more difference.   (hey,  I'm a skeptic,  or totally deaf... not sure which).   But why would people selling capacitors admit that the $5 metal film cap sounds the same as $30 cap with vintage looking stripes?  (you can get 2 orange drops for $10 vs 30 for a Luxe bumblebee).   I can change from a medium to a thin pick and make a HUGE difference.   One good thing with caps like the orange drops is that they are VERY stable, and not microphonic at all.   Ceramic cap values can vary with temp,  be microphonic and usually have a pretty wide tolerance (like +/-20%!)   You really don't need a 600V capacitor for a guitar circuit where you are working with 1 V or less.   However,  voltage handling is somewhat a function of the dialectric film  (polyester vs polypropylene vs styrene vs paper). 

 

Have i confused/frustrated/scared you off  enough?  ?  Seriously, it's not a massively huge deal or hard job to do.   It wont make you suddenly sound like Jimmy Page or Joe Pass.  I just find it fun to learn how all this stuff works.   As I said,  I'm somewhat skeptical of some of the lore that is put forth on the internet.    It's probably part of my Deming/ISO 9000 quality training.   Tribal knowledge vs verified observation and all that.    I'm sure there are people who can hear this kind of stuff, just like there are drivers who can tell a 1/2 degree difference in a wing, or 1/4 pound difference in tire pressure,  but I'm not Max Verstappen or Helio Castroneves.  

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by TalismanRich

[hopkinwfg]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:45 AM, Rockaman said:

I just picked up my first Heritage last week from Sweetwater - an H-150 in Vintage Wineburst. This "sweetwater exclusive" has SD Alnico Pro IIs instead of the usual SD '59s.

So far, I love it! Plays wonderfully, sounds great, is resonant as hell/sustain for weeks! I don't ever buy new guitars, but this was a special treat for myself!

 

There are a couple of issues I found though - nothing world ending to me, anyways. There was a ding under the pickguard where the bracket screw hit the top of the guitar (sucky but not a huge deal for me) and the neck pickup ring is cracked. Neither of which are a huge deal, but kind of bummers. You'd think they'd put some felt under the pickguard screw or something...Sweetwater offered to exchange for a different guitar, but the only other one in this color is heavier and uglier  They said they'd try to get me a replacement p/up ring.

The only other thing with fit & finish that has me going "wait, what?" is the wiring job:

 

That is some SLOPPY solder work - the only thing I can think of is that it originally had the SD 59's then there was a "oh s**t this one is supposed to have the Alnico IIs" and it was a Friday before a long weekend  

(You can also see the stepped carve from the CNC; I don't know that I've seen a cavity like that before.)

 

Anyways, other than those teeny issues, I absolutely love this guitar and it absolutely blows away several other LPs I've played lately. 

 

Wow that top is hell nice !!! How much for this exclusive from sweetwater ? Hows the craftmanship like? 

[aGuitarSolo]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:42 PM, TalismanRich said:

Have i confused/frustrated/scared you off  enough?  

Absolutely not. You have inspired me to deep dive into this subject. I really appreciate it.

I thought I would share something that happened the other night that I'm still laughing/crying about.

By way of background, I learned to solder as a kid. I started playing guitar at age 11 so by age 13, I had a Teisco electric guitar and quickly learned the need to repair my own cables. I found an old photo of me at something like age 14 with my Teisco in my bedroom

I am (was) pretty good at soldering. About 5 years ago, I visited the home of a friend of mine who was head of IT for a product-research company. He had salvaged a defective keyboard that needed some component soldered back on to the printed-circuit board for the keyboard to function properly. I took the opportunity to use that situation to teach him how to solder which I demonstrated to him by soldering that tiny component back into place.

Shortly after my earlier postings, I removed the electronics from my Heritage using my old, basic-style soldering iron. It was a particular challenge because the soldering was a terrible mess. However, I persevered and finally got everything loose. By of excuse for the words that are to follow, I have ADHD. "Staying in the present" is a particular challenge for me. My work space is limited so I started to gather the parts I removed before unplugging the soldering iron.

Not paying attention to the hot soldering iron, I bumped it and it fell to the hardwood floor below. I saw it hit the floor and knowing how hot it was, I wanted to make sure it didn't burn the floor. So, I immediately reached down and grabbed it. Unfortunately, I grabbed it by the metal shaft instead of the handle.

The good news is, I didn't burn the floor. That bad news is... well, I attached a photo of the bad news.

Needless to say, the solderless kit looks more attractive to me now.

 

[Steiner]

Woof aGuitarSolo!  That's an old looking hand for such a young kid in the photo above.  That's a mistake you'll only make once.  Now, with that behind you, it's time to rock that new guitar.

PS - Aloe is your friend.

[aGuitarSolo]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:18 AM, golferwave said:

If you want to get rid of the barrel jack you can drill out the input jack hole with normal wood drill bits.

Fantastic and that WAS the plan. However, a miracle came my way.

I am abandoning the refinishing project because Heritage is sending me a brand new H-150. It should arrive next week.

I'll have more details once it arrives and I can take photos.

I hope the new H-150s don't have the barrel jack.

[aGuitarSolo]

22 minutes ago, Steiner said:

That's a mistake you'll only make once.

I was thinking exactly that but I added a two words to it: ... "I hope."

[TalismanRich]

OUCH!!!   I always solder in the basement, so if anything falls, it's on concrete.   I probably would have just grabbed the cord, although it's  a knee jerk reaction.  You don't know what will happen until it happens!

I'm amazed at all the people who think that soldering is some special talent.   I will say that the new lead free solder is much more of a pain to use than the old 60/40 stuff we had as kids.   As I said, a lot of my early soldering was slot cars.  That included building a lot of chassis, and for the really good ones, we used silver based solder.   It was a lot stronger than tin/lead solder, so  the joints wouldn't break when you slammed the wall.   For that you need a really hot iron, and the corrosive liquid flux.  

Thats a cool photo of the Teisco.   My first guitar was a Dano built Silvertone with one pickup.   It had a body fashioned out of old growth masonite, to give the ultimate in tone! ?   The thought of people paying high prices for those guitars baffles me.  Seriously,  $600 to $900???? 

It was replaced with a Guyatone built Kent with 4 pickups.  Looking through all the pictures that my Dad took of us as kids,  I have yet to find one of me with that guitar.   That lasted a couple of years before I finally got a Fender Jaguar.  

Looking forward to you opinion of the new guitar.   No worries about barrel jacks,  they use the plate mounted jacks for H150s these days.

[Millennium Maestro]

2 hours ago, aGuitarSolo said:

I started playing guitar at age 11 so by age 13, I had a Teisco electric guitar and ...

Another guitar brand own by the Singapore based Bandlab corp. You could probably purchase a Kalamazoo build one now!

[aGuitarSolo]

2 hours ago, Millennium Maestro said:

Another guitar brand own by the Singapore based Bandlab corp

i did some research about Teisco some years ago. Going by memory, I think that Sears rebranded some Teisco models and sold them under the name Silvertone. My recollection of myTeisco was that it played and sounded really bad. Obviously, it was a very cheap guitar. By the time I was 15, I had save up enough money to purchase a used Fender Jaguar which was a big step up from the Teisco.

[TalismanRich]

Don't you wish you still had the Jag?    I sold mine for $225 in '75.   Now they are selling for $5-10,000 on Reverb.   If I had mine, I would let it go for a paltry $4900!

The Kent that I had looked just like this one.   My cousin had it until his basement flooded.   He said it fell apart after sitting in water for a day or so..

Edited October 14, 2023 by TalismanRich