Teach a newbie about archtop setup, please...

[tdrommond]

I'm babysitting a very fine 1994 Heritage Super Eagle for a friend who inherited it and doesn't play. His dad's not around to ask and I know little about archtop jazz guitars. Now, don't get me wrong, that didn't stop me. He dropped it off with me needing strings in the worse way, so I stopped at the music store, had them measure the string gauges on it so I wouldn't have to adjust for string tension differences. I bought a set of Ernie Ball Heavy Tops 10-52s. Now that I've gone through the trials and tribulations of a finger tailpiece, its strung. The bridge is untouched, however it slipped while restringing. I took off both the 1st and 6th strings first and reinstalled them to pitch, before removing and replacing the rest from the outside in. It is buzzing like crazy on the first fret 5th and 6th strings. There's a gap of .013-.016 bass to treble side above the first fret. There's no other buzz on any other string and none on the 5th or 6th above the first fret. It appears to be an issue regarding the nut. The action is a little high, compared to my Strat and the bridge thumbwheels appear to be out about half the height of the bottom plate, so I don't think there's much left there to raise without having too few threads in the wood. The intonation is spot on, so I don't want to move the bridge forward to gain some adjustment.

 

Additionally, these strings are too bright and brassy. What would be a few choices in proper jazz style strings? Something kind of Tal Farlow mellow.

 

I'm all ears and could at least use a little guidance. If I've done anything stupid to this point, don't laugh and don't thell Cord, the guitar's owner

[MartyGrass]

You likely need to release the neck tension a little or put some heavier strings on it.

 

Before spending money on a new set of strings, I'd consider loosening the truss rod a little.

 

BTW, the bridge base is upside down.

 

The guitar must be a more recent Super since it has a compensated bridge. And it looks like the tailpiece is black with the rest of the hardware gold. There must be a story there.

[tdrommond]

You likely need to release the neck tension a little or put some heavier strings on it.

 

Before spending money on a new set of strings, I'd consider loosening the truss rod a little.

 

BTW, the bridge base is upside down.

 

The guitar must be a more recent Super since it has a compensated bridge. And it looks like the tailpiece is black with the rest of the hardware gold. There must be a story there.

 

Could you post a picture of the proper installation of the bridge? Do you mean that it's 180 degrees out or that the assy is upside down? As far as I know, this guitar is unmodified and as built in 1994. However, I just spoke with my friend about it. I was mistaken, this was his grandfather's guitar, not his father's. It was played at functions for both of Bill Clinton's Inaugurations, by Cord's grandfather, N.C. Ficklin of the Bella Vista Big Band group from Bella Vista, Ark. NC also had a radio show in Columbia, Mo. back in the 60s and 70s. N.C. passed away in 2002 and it hasn't been played since, according to Cord. He did say that it went back to Heritage in 2000 or 2001, so it might have had work done then, but any work done was done in Kalamazoo. N.C. was very proud of this particular guitar, which was one of many he had. Cord received it at his grandfather's request in hopes that he'd learn to play. Cord says it made a very poor starter guitar, since he was nervous as a cat in room full of rocking chairs everytime he touched it. He never learned to play. 10 years in the closet.

[tdrommond]

Took a boatload of pictures. Here's a link to the album: http://photobucket.com/supereagle

 

 

 

[Kuz]

You likely need to release the neck tension a little or put some heavier strings on it.

 

Before spending money on a new set of strings, I'd consider loosening the truss rod a little.

 

BTW, the bridge base is upside down.

 

The guitar must be a more recent Super since it has a compensated bridge. And it looks like the tailpiece is black with the rest of the hardware gold. There must be a story there.

 

That is the same thing I said Mark

[Kuz]

As far as the Bridge... the "G" string should be the farthest string away from the nut. Loosen the stings, take the bridge/saddle off the base plate and turn it around (there is a chance you will have to completely remove the strings but I don't know. My Heritage archtops don't have that modern finger style tailpiece).

[Kuz]

Wow, on futher inspection the whole bridge & base plate is reversed ( the birds should be making "V"s when you look at it).

 

Here is a picture of mine for reference..

[tdrommond]

That might explain the buzz at the first fret on the 5th and 6th strings.

 

I took the pictures with it in the case as soon as Cord opened it up, so it looks like someone else has been messing with it. I'm pretty sure granddad didn't install it backwards...however, Cord did say he got a little goofy towards the end and did odd things. Which makes me wonder about something else. There are two flaws in the clear coat on the back. One looks to be a drop of clear near the middle of the back and a run at the bottom lip of the back. I doubt it left the factory like that.

[MartyGrass]

The eagles are upside down, that's all.

 

 

[tdrommond]

Wow, on futher inspection the whole bridge & base plate is reversed ( the birds should be making "V"s when you look at it).

 

Here is a picture of mine for reference..

 

Like this?? Strings are still slack.

 

[yoslate]

"The intonation is spot on, so I don't want to move the bridge forward to gain some adjustment."

 

 

If you need to re-set the intonation, don't sweat it; it's easy. The twelfth fret should be exactly 1/2 of the way (to a 32d of an inch, or better) between where the high "E" string breaks over the nut, and where it breaks over the bridge. Just measure from the string break over the nut, to the dead center of the twelfth fret, and duplicate that measurement from the twelfth fret to the bridge, by sliding the bridge back or forth, with just a bit of tension on the strings. That's a gorgeous box!

[tdrommond]

"The intonation is spot on, so I don't want to move the bridge forward to gain some adjustment."

 

 

If you need to re-set the intonation, don't sweat it; it's easy. The twelfth fret should be exactly 1/2 of the way (to a 32d of an inch, or better) between where the high "E" string breaks over the nut, and where it breaks over the bridge. Just measure from the string break over the nut, to the dead center of the twelfth fret, and duplicate that measurement from the twelfth fret to the bridge, by sliding the bridge back or forth, with just a bit of tension on the strings. That's a gorgeous box!

 

Well, since the dang bridge was on upside down, it must not be too hard to set the intonation.....I flipped it over and re-tuned. Got the 1st and 6th intonated with a little wiggle, the rest fell in line as expected. Still buzzing, but seems to be either getting better, or I'm calming down. It is so warm and buttery. The feel of the frets is awesome. A light touch and they are on. A slide up and the pitch changes so smooth it sounds like a lap steel.

[bobmeyrick]

I don't think the bridge was on upside down. My own "Meyrick" archtop (I discovered a luthier with the same surname!) has the same type of bridge, fitted in the same orientation as your original pictures. When I looked at my other guitars, I found that the saddle for the G string is indeed set further back from the nut (as Kuz said). There is, however, an important difference. All of my electrics (apart from the archtop) have plain G strings, while the archtop has a wound G. It seems that the plain strings need to have their saddles set further back, and most archtops would be strung with heavier strings, including a wound G. As a wooden bridge is not adjustable, the adjustment for intonation has to be fixed for the most likely strings to used, i.e. those with a wound G. Hope that makes sense. The attached pictures show the Meyrick archtop and my Heritage 535 for comparison.

[tdrommond]

 

I'm finished taking advice here!

 

You knuckleheads have had me chasing my tail over this bridge. I just stopped believing anything I read here. The f-ing thing was not upside down, unless they put them on upside down at the freaking factory. Here's photo from the Heritage Website showing the bridge. I'll contact someone at Heritage that knows WTF they are talking about, instead of all the self made genius with too much time and money on there hands. Go laugh at each other. I'm done with you.

[yoslate]

 

BTW, the bridge base is upside down.

 

The guitar must be a more recent Super since it has a compensated bridge. And it looks like the tailpiece is black with the rest of the hardware gold. There must be a story there.

As far as the Bridge... the "G" string should be the farthest string away from the nut. Loosen the stings, take the bridge/saddle off the base plate and turn it around (there is a chance you will have to completely remove the strings but I don't know. My Heritage archtops don't have that modern finger style tailpiece).

The eagles are upside down, that's all.

I don't think the bridge was on upside down. My own "Meyrick" archtop (I discovered a luthier with the same surname!) has the same type of bridge, fitted in the same orientation as your original pictures. When I looked at my other guitars, I found that the saddle for the G string is indeed set further back from the nut (as Kuz said).

 

"tdrommond", the bridge and the bridge baseplate are two separate pieces. Perhaps the posters assumed you knew that, but apparently you did not. John's ("Kuz") post made that fact clear. I think you'll find a wealth of knowledge and experience here in any number of friendly, well-intentioned, thoughtful posts, designed to provide free help. But just as many posts here are carefully written, they also require careful, thoughtful reading. If your last post is you "thanking" the posters for their help, that you're "done" with us, may work out well for all involved. Thanks!

[Kuz]

WOW, OK....

 

I am the only one that said the bridge was upside down, but if you flipped the baseplate over then the bridge would have been upside down again.

 

SO we were only trying to help and honestly I think you should call someone BEFORE you do your set ups. I didn't say anything to try to respect YOUR judgement, but I have never heard of anyone using 10s on an archtop. This leads to less tension, a messed up truss rod, and subsequent fretting out on the guitar.

 

WE were only trying to help you, but I definitely feel you need help with yourself and your setups.

 

Good luck!!!

[MartyGrass]

Here's something that may help you.

 

 

[tdrommond]

I came here with my hat in my hand, humbling asking for help. At the risk of being laughed at, I described each step I'd taken and exposed myself to what ever criticism I'd earned. I took lots of pictures and tried my best to rear carefully the advice offered.

 

In the end, all I got was more confused and frustrated. I have a degree in civil engineering, I've was a parts prototyper for Britsh Aerospace, was on the F/A-18 Hornet introduction team, spent 3 WestPacs on the USS Midway as an aircraft mechanic on Marine F-4 Phantoms. I've restored several old trucks, and rewired a couple of British cars. The mission-style couch/box settle and the Morris chair in my living room were built in my shop by my hands. I've even built a couple of cigar box guitars. My point is, this isn't more complicated than my skill sets. It's merely a matter of education and experience. That's what I came here looking for.

 

I apologize for going off. It wasn't neccessary. It was borne of embarrassment in not knowing how to ask the right questions in the right language to get the right answers.

 

I'll stick to what I know and leave fancy archtop guitars to someone else. I've called the owner of the Super Eagle and told him to come save it from me. I also told him to take it and have it setup professionally and to send me the bill. My Strat works fine, it never breaks and I can field strip it blindfolded...sort of like my old M-16.

 

Again, my sincere apologies.

[Kuz]

 

I'm finished taking advice here!

 

You knuckleheads have had me chasing my tail over this bridge. I just stopped believing anything I read here. The f-ing thing was not upside down, unless they put them on upside down at the freaking factory. Here's photo from the Heritage Website showing the bridge. I'll contact someone at Heritage that knows WTF they are talking about, instead of all the self made genius with too much time and money on there hands. Go laugh at each other. I'm done with you.

 

I may have a lot of time on my hands, but not money??? What does that have to do with anything?

 

I am 46 and 60% of my company was " downsized" in April. I am still looking for a job, so NO I don't have a lot of money right now. I guess you could say I have every right to be stressed and on edge right now, but instead I am trying to help out a 47 year old put his archtop back together correctly. So do you have a better reason to go off because you spent a couple extra hours working on a guitar?

 

By the way, did you change your avatar to a Strat to rub it in, or just poor judgment in using that avatar at a HERITAGE guitar club?

[tdrommond]

No I changed my avatar because I don't have any business with the Super Eagle as my avatar. The Strat is me, good bad or ugly. No insult or nose rubbing intended.

 

I don't feel the need for this type of guitar in my life. Doesn't mean it's wrong for others, just wrong for me.

 

I'll end this thread here, unless there are others I need to apologize to. Thanks all.

 

Kuz, I'm serious when I say I'm sorry. You tried to help and I tried to be helped. As Robert Plant once said...It's nobody's fault but mine.

[jeffmatz]

Sorry, I got to this late...

 

As you've deduced, the top part of the bridge was not upside down.

 

It is, however, a bridge that is compensated for a wound G string. A plain G will likely not intonate well with this bridge.

[sakis26]

Hmmm i dont think the bridge is the problem here.Having A LOT archtop guitars through the years i learned simple things that you NEVER do on expensive archtop guitars IF you are really care for your instrument and especially if you intend to sell it in the near future:you never 1)try sanding the bridge because you saw it somewhere on the internet 2)touch the truss rod because you saw somewhere on the internet 3)change pickups or electronics in general all by yourself because you saw it somewhere on the internet 4)refret it because you saw it on a youtube video and it looked pretty simple.Instead of doing any of these try a far more simple way to adjust or set up your beautifull archtop:go to a guitar tech,support your economy,have the instrument adjusted the way you wanted without sweat (and probably tears).I respect people who give how-to tips without being guitar techs themselves because hey! its their instrument so they can experiment all they want but if you choose this over a guitar tech about an expensive archtop well...you had it coming.In general adjusting an archtop or changing parts including electronics on it sometimes may seems easy but must be avoided cause even if you cant see the sloppiness after your ''adjustments'' well its there and a guitar tech can see what happened to the poor molested instrument .I have several stories from the time i worked in the same place with a guitar tech and most of these stories were starting like ''well it seemed so easy to change the nut'' or ''adjusting the truss rod encyclopedia was probably wrong''.Anyway this thread its probably dead but because someone may buy the guitar you now experiment with (im not reffering to you personally but to anyone experimenting with expensive ''toys'') for god and future buyers sake please DONT TOUCH IT leave to someone who dont think it may works but hes sure that will work .