Steiner Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 This ax has been on Craigslist here for some time. Craigslist Citation With a 17" lower bout and 3" depth, inlays, ebony board, even MOP trussrod cover it looks a LOT like the Golden Eagle Heritage MSRP $6,600 Gibbon MSRP $33,059 Things that make you go Hmmm... Gibbon's web: Citation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I'm so glad that there is a Heritage. $33,000 for a guitar? How many Golden Eagles can I have made to my specs for that amount? I don't see any thing more special about this citation guitar than I would from a Golden Eagle. I guess if it's your money you spend it the way you want. I'm satisfied with the Heritage brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 You guys are missing the whole point.... for $33,000 you get a guitar made by a computer!!! So get your check book out boys!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Good morning gentlemen. I once again find myself in the unenvyable position of jumping to Gibson's defense . . . and on an HOC forum, to make matters even worse. But, I think that you might be mischaracterizing, or at least mis representing some of the detail here. Firstly, the Citation is definitely not one of Gibson's "computer" made guitars. It's made in their Custom Shop, formerly overseen by the late James Hutchins. As I've stated before, the craftsmen and women of the Custom Shop were hand chosen and personally trained by Jim Hutchins . . . much like what happens on Parsons Street. Secondly,let's look at the pricing. Your comparing a $33,000 list price Citation, to a $6,600 priced Golden Eagle. Not necessarily a fair comparison. Firstly, the Citation price is inclusive of the case. add $200 to the price of the Golden Eagle for a case. It's now $6,800. The Citation already has Gibson's premium wood package. Add $770 dollars to the Golden Eagle for Heritage's premium wood upgrade. The heritage is now $7,570. The Citation already has the maximum binding package. Add $385 to the Heritage for their custom binding upgrade. The Heritage is now $7,955. The Citation has a tap tuned top and back as standard. Add $616 to the Heritage for tap tuning. The Heritage is now $8,571. The Citation has a back of head stock veneer with a custom inlay. Add $440 to the Heritage. The Heritage cost now goes up to $9,011. The Citation will be delivered as a full size 17" X 3.25" X 21" arch top. Add $220 to bring the GE up to that size. The Heritage is now $9,231. The Citation, unless delivered out of stock, will be custom built and shaded to the color of your liking . .. at no charge. If you want a "non-standard" color from Heritage, the upcharge could go from $200 to $400. So, let's split that number to $300. The Heritage now goes up to $9,531. The bridge base on the Citation has inlays, included in the price. Heritage now charges $200 . . . and really doesn't even want to do it any more. Now the Heritage goes up to $9,731. I know these upcharge prices and policys to be accurate from both companies. The upcharge prices I metioned herein are directly from Vince Margol. At the end of the day, the Heritage is BY FAR the better dollar value for truly similar guitars. Even with the upcharges, it's still less than 1/3 of the list price of a Citation. The remainder of disparity pricing, which is huge, is driven by desirability and collectability . . . just like everything else. That's why a 1959 custom color maple cap strat sells for $35,000 and the superior new G & L sell for 1/10th the amount. But, no one is gonna convince me that a Custom Shop built Citation is not every bit as good a guitar as a custom built Golden Eagle. Heck . . . . even Jim and Marv will tell you the same thing. The price differential is market driven. Nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Oh!! And even after that long winded posting . . . I forgot to mention, both of those Citations, the one shown on Craig's List and the one on the Gibson web page are absolutely beautiful . . . as is every other Citation I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Seacup Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Did someone say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Good morning gentlemen. I once again find myself in the unenvyable position of jumping to Gibson's defense . . . and on an HOC forum, to make matters even worse. But, I think that you might be mischaracterizing, or at least mis representing some of the detail here. Firstly, the Citation is definitely not one of Gibson's "computer" made guitars. It's made in their Custom Shop, formerly overseen by the late James Hutchins. As I've stated before, the craftsmen and women of the Custom Shop were hand chosen and personally trained by Jim Hutchins . . . much like what happens on Parsons Street. Secondly,let's look at the pricing. Your comparing a $33,000 list price Citation, to a $6,600 priced Golden Eagle. Not necessarily a fair comparison. Firstly, the Citation price is inclusive of the case. add $200 to the price of the Golden Eagle for a case. It's now $6,800. The Citation already has Gibson's premium wood package. Add $770 dollars to the Golden Eagle for Heritage's premium wood upgrade. The heritage is now $7,570. The Citation already has the maximum binding package. Add $385 to the Heritage for their custom binding upgrade. The Heritage is now $7,955. The Citation has a tap tuned top and back as standard. Add $616 to the Heritage for tap tuning. The Heritage is now $8,571. The Citation has a back of head stock veneer with a custom inlay. Add $440 to the Heritage. The Heritage cost now goes up to $9,011. The Citation will be delivered as a full size 17" X 3.25" X 21" arch top. Add $220 to bring the GE up to that size. The Heritage is now $9,231. The Citation, unless delivered out of stock, will be custom built and shaded to the color of your liking . .. at no charge. If you want a "non-standard" color from Heritage, the upcharge could go from $200 to $400. So, let's split that number to $300. The Heritage now goes up to $9,531. The bridge base on the Citation has inlays, included in the price. Heritage now charges $200 . . . and really doesn't even want to do it any more. Now the Heritage goes up to $9,731. I know these upcharge prices and policys to be accurate from both companies. The upcharge prices I metioned herein are directly from Vince Margol. At the end of the day, the Heritage is BY FAR the better dollar value for truly similar guitars. Even with the upcharges, it's still less than 1/3 of the list price of a Citation. The remainder of disparity pricing, which is huge, is driven by desirability and collectability . . . just like everything else. That's why a 1959 custom color maple cap strat sells for $35,000 and the superior new G & L sell for 1/10th the amount. But, no one is gonna convince me that a Custom Shop built Citation is not every bit as good a guitar as a custom built Golden Eagle. Heck . . . . even Jim and Marv will tell you the same thing. The price differential is market driven. Nothing more, nothing less. Patrick, Just to play devil's advocate.... Are you willing to bet your guitar collection that absolutely no CNC machine was used, in any way, to build that Gibby? Yea, maybe wanting to stir-up the pot, but more to have a little fun with ya..... Oh, also, often some of the "add on" expenses are waved for HOC members in good standing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredZepp Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 That is an Excellent example of Heritage Value.. And from Parsons St, Kalamazoo.. no less. A bit less dramatic but still an example of Heritage value ... a Super 400 CES vs. a Super Eagle. 18" Archtops. Super 400 list = $17,292 Super Eagle list = $ 7,500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Yea, but. What are you going to do with $10,000??? Isn't the name worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbonesullivan Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 That price is not that outrageous. The Gibson custom shop charges a TON for true custom guitars, even ones that just have a custom finish and are not that different from a normal guitar. Also, that is a "for collectors" piece with lots of bling and such. So, it costs more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersteel Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I don't like the headstock... ...on the Gibby. It just looks too gawdy! The Heritage headstock seems to fit perfect! Oh, and I like ice cream! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mgoetting Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Good morning gentlemen. I once again find myself in the unenvyable position of jumping to Gibson's defense . . . and on an HOC forum, to make matters even worse. But, I think that you might be mischaracterizing, or at least mis representing some of the detail here. Firstly, the Citation is definitely not one of Gibson's "computer" made guitars. It's made in their Custom Shop, formerly overseen by the late James Hutchins. As I've stated before, the craftsmen and women of the Custom Shop were hand chosen and personally trained by Jim Hutchins . . . much like what happens on Parsons Street. Secondly,let's look at the pricing. Your comparing a $33,000 list price Citation, to a $6,600 priced Golden Eagle. Not necessarily a fair comparison. Firstly, the Citation price is inclusive of the case. add $200 to the price of the Golden Eagle for a case. It's now $6,800. The Citation already has Gibson's premium wood package. Add $770 dollars to the Golden Eagle for Heritage's premium wood upgrade. The heritage is now $7,570. The Citation already has the maximum binding package. Add $385 to the Heritage for their custom binding upgrade. The Heritage is now $7,955. The Citation has a tap tuned top and back as standard. Add $616 to the Heritage for tap tuning. The Heritage is now $8,571. The Citation has a back of head stock veneer with a custom inlay. Add $440 to the Heritage. The Heritage cost now goes up to $9,011. The Citation will be delivered as a full size 17" X 3.25" X 21" arch top. Add $220 to bring the GE up to that size. The Heritage is now $9,231. The Citation, unless delivered out of stock, will be custom built and shaded to the color of your liking . .. at no charge. If you want a "non-standard" color from Heritage, the upcharge could go from $200 to $400. So, let's split that number to $300. The Heritage now goes up to $9,531. The bridge base on the Citation has inlays, included in the price. Heritage now charges $200 . . . and really doesn't even want to do it any more. Now the Heritage goes up to $9,731. I know these upcharge prices and policys to be accurate from both companies. The upcharge prices I metioned herein are directly from Vince Margol. At the end of the day, the Heritage is BY FAR the better dollar value for truly similar guitars. Even with the upcharges, it's still less than 1/3 of the list price of a Citation. The remainder of disparity pricing, which is huge, is driven by desirability and collectability . . . just like everything else. That's why a 1959 custom color maple cap strat sells for $35,000 and the superior new G & L sell for 1/10th the amount. But, no one is gonna convince me that a Custom Shop built Citation is not every bit as good a guitar as a custom built Golden Eagle. Heck . . . . even Jim and Marv will tell you the same thing. The price differential is market driven. Nothing more, nothing less. First time your kid knocks the Citation off its stand, $20,000 downcharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Patrick, Just to play devil's advocate.... Are you willing to bet your guitar collection that absolutely no CNC machine was used, in any way, to build that Gibby? Yea, maybe wanting to stir-up the pot, but more to have a little fun with ya..... Oh, also, often some of the "add on" expenses are waved for HOC members in good standing!!! Kuz, you're correct (as usual). The initial rough carving is done by machine . . . as is Heritage's. As for betting my guitar collection, the only thing I'll ever bet my guitar collection on . . . is that one day, I will die. By the way, I forgot to add in the upcharge for the bound volute on the back of the head stock. Citation . .. included in price . . . Heritage $500 . . . if you can talk them into doing it. That's an up charge in addition to the inlayed veneer. Aaron cowles took my maple board up to Heritage (for the 18" he's builsing me) for them to glue it and rough carve it. He swears that it is better, more effective and more "true" of a glued seam using Heritage's procedure, than it is to do totally by hand. The Master Grade Alaska sitka spruce I sourced was totally hand carved, start to finish, by Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Kuz, you're correct (as usual). The initial rough carving is done by machine . . . as is Heritage's. As for betting my guitar collection, the only thing I'll ever bet my guitar collection on . . . is that one day, I will die. By the way, I forgot to add in the upcharge for the bound volute on the back of the head stock. Citation . .. included in price . . . Heritage $500 . . . if you can talk them into doing it. That's an up charge in addition to the inlayed veneer. Aaron cowles took my maple board up to Heritage (for the 18" he's builsing me) for them to glue it and rough carve it. He swears that it is better, more effective and more "true" of a glued seam using Heritage's procedure, than it is to do totally by hand. The Master Grade Alaska sitka spruce I sourced was totally hand carved, start to finish, by Aaron. Stop cheating!!! LOL Heritage cut's it's guitars with a router or a machine from the 1930s.... Gibby uses a CNC!!!! Am I right or wrong about the CNC body cutting for Gibby!!! (Again, I think I am right, but please take this in the spirit of a joke. Almost every guitar company uses a CNC for something. I have 3 PRS guitars that I love and they are CNC'd and then hand-finished!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 First time your kid knocks the Citation off its stand, $20,000 downcharge. I guess we could come up with all the reasons in the world not to pay that outrageous an amount of money for a guitar . . . . any guitar. I would probably agree with all of those reasons . . . and then offer an equal amount of reasons why one should pay such an outrageous amount. Abain . . . it's all market driven. This guy selling his pre-owned (ya gotta say pre owned when it's that expensive . . . If it was "just a Heritage" you could say used) Citation will probably get close to the $20K he's looking for. The, in a better economy, it could probably be resold for $25,000. As for the $20K loss if my kid knocked my Citation off it's stand . . . you would need to add another $20K in legal fees for an attorney to defend me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Stop cheating!!! LOL Heritage cut's it's guitars with a router or a machine from the 1930s.... Gibby uses a CNC!!!! Am I right or wrong about the CNC body cutting for Gibby!!! (Again, I think I am right, but please take this in the spirit of a joke. Almost every guitar company uses a CNC for something. I have 3 PRS guitars that I love and they are CNC'd and then hand-finished!!!) Absolutely taking your banter in the joking spirit it's meant. I know that Gibson is using a CNC on it's production models. I'm not so sure that Jim Hutchins would give in to anything short of what he determind that it took to make a premium quality arch top. Jim was much like Marv. There was no cutting corners when it came to quality. If you see an arch top from Gibson, at a "somewhat" reasonable price, and the label was hand signed by James W. Hutchins . . . . buy it!! You'll never regret owning it, then when ever you want to, you will at least get your money back. Ask Jim Triggs about Hutch . . . or ask Aaron, or Marv . . . or better yet, ask JP. Hey!!! Someone ought to call ol' JP and see if he'll make the trek up from Alabama for PSPIII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpunk Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Who are some of the top tier players out there currently playing a new Citation? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Absolutely taking your banter in the joking spirit it's meant. I know that Gibson is using a CNC on it's production models. I'm not so sure that Jim Hutchins would give in to anything short of what he determind that it took to make a premium quality arch top. Jim was much like Marv. There was no cutting corners when it came to quality. If you see an arch top from Gibson, at a "somewhat" reasonable price, and the label was hand signed by James W. Hutchins . . . . buy it!! You'll never regret owning it, then when ever you want to, you will at least get your money back. Ask Jim Triggs about Hutch . . . or ask Aaron, or Marv . . . or better yet, ask JP. Hey!!! Someone ought to call ol' JP and see if he'll make the trek up from Alabama for PSPIII We asked him last year and I think he has seen enough of Michigan. HighflyingBird (Ron) was especially close to JP as they are both raised & in-born in Alabama!!!! He may know more of JP's whereabouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpunk Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I guess we could come up with all the reasons in the world not to pay that outrageous an amount of money for a guitar . . . . any guitar. I would probably agree with all of those reasons . . . and then offer an equal amount of reasons why one should pay such an outrageous amount. I'd love to play a Gibson Citation and a custom Heritage 'citation' side by side and see if I could hear and feel the $20,000 dollar difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpunk Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Who are some of the top tier players out there currently playing a new Citation? Just curious. I am in no way a Gibson hater (I think the 335 is one of the sexiest guitar designs ever conceived!). That said, I can not avoid noticing the reality that the majority of top tier jazz guitarists these days are not choosing Gibson when it comes to purchasing or endorsing a guitar that is currently being manufactured. Just some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I am in no way a Gibson hater (I think the 335 is one of the sexiest guitar designs ever conceived!). That said, I can not avoid noticing the reality that the majority of top tier jazz guitarists these days are not choosing Gibson when it comes to purchasing or endorsing a guitar that is currently being manufactured. Just some food for thought. Jazzpunk . . . . the last time I got involved in a "debate" on a thread that you were a part of, you became offended and offered in an open letter your "resignation" from HOC. Well, it seems, here we go again. I have read you last 3 posts and I tried . . . desperately . . . not to respond. I have failed. To your first post; you would like to play a Gibson Citation and a Heritage Citation (what ever that is) side by side to see if you could hear and feel a $20,000 difference. If you think the price difference is about the feel and the sound . . . then you're totally clueless. Also, as you know, Heritage doesn't make a Citation, so I'm assuming that you are referencing one of Heritage's other top of line arch tops. Further to that, the Citation guitars that are the of the highest value and most collectable were in fact made at Parsons Street. Then you ask; "who are some of the top tier players that are currently playing a new Citation" As was mentioned by someone before me . . . the Citation is not purchased by the working jazz artist to be used as one of the tools of his/her trade. It's bought as a collectable piece of guitar making history and dare I say . . . art. I'll bet that the people who own Citations heven't even played them enough for them to have truly "opened up" to their true tonal potential. Lastly, you ask how many jazz players are still playing Gibsons? My only response to that is . . . you're kidding . . right??" Have you ever even seen a Gibson Citation . . live. Or held and played one? Take a close look at the detail, focus, care and workmanship that went into Fredzepp's Centurion. That's what every Citation looks and feels like. The comparison of a Citation to a Golde Eagle, which was the post that started this thread, is an unfair injustice to the Golden Eagle. Do you think for one minute that you can have Heritage build you a Heritage Centurion for $6,600?? After I added all the upcharges to the Golden Eagle currently being built for me the list price was over $10,000 . . . and it isn't gonna be nearly what Fredzepp's Centurion is. If you're gonna compare guitars and costs, then compare the Citation to the Centurion. That's more of a fair comparison. Do you think you can feel and hear the difference in a true authentic 1959 Gibson Les Paul as compared to an R9 or a vert well made clone?? You talk about being able to hear and feel a $20,000 difference? How about a quarter of a million dollar difference?? I hope not to offend you . . . but your 3 posts really got under my finger nails. If we all try hard enough, we could still love Heritage without constantly bashing Gibson. I have sometimes visited the Les Paul forum. There have occasionally been posts referencing the H150. I have never read a single disparaging comment. The Heritage arch top guitar is without a doubt the greatest dollar value on the market for a high quality and beautiful American made arch top. That's why I own 6 of them. But a Gibson Citation . . . is a Gibson Citation!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Seacup Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted July 18, 2010 Author Share Posted July 18, 2010 I'd love to play a Gibson Citation and a custom Heritage 'citation' side by side and see if I could hear and feel the $20,000 dollar difference! AH! A fresh breath of sanity! +1 Karma JP. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mgoetting Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 Jazzpunk . . . . the last time I got involved in a "debate" on a thread that you were a part of, you became offended and offered in an open letter your "resignation" from HOC. Well, it seems, here we go again. I have read you last 3 posts and I tried . . . desperately . . . not to respond. I have failed. To your first post; you would like to play a Gibson Citation and a Heritage Citation (what ever that is) side by side to see if you could hear and feel a $20,000 difference. If you think the price difference is about the feel and the sound . . . then you're totally clueless. Also, as you know, Heritage doesn't make a Citation, so I'm assuming that you are referencing one of Heritage's other top of line arch tops. Further to that, the Citation guitars that are the of the highest value and most collectable were in fact made at Parsons Street. Then you ask; "who are some of the top tier players that are currently playing a new Citation" As was mentioned by someone before me . . . the Citation is not purchased by the working jazz artist to be used as one of the tools of his/her trade. It's bought as a collectable piece of guitar making history and dare I say . . . art. I'll bet that the people who own Citations heven't even played them enough for them to have truly "opened up" to their true tonal potential. Lastly, you ask how many jazz players are still playing Gibsons? My only response to that is . . . you're kidding . . right??" Have you ever even seen a Gibson Citation . . live. Or held and played one? Take a close look at the detail, focus, care and workmanship that went into Fredzepp's Centurion. That's what every Citation looks and feels like. The comparison of a Citation to a Golde Eagle, which was the post that started this thread, is an unfair injustice to the Golden Eagle. Do you think for one minute that you can have Heritage build you a Heritage Centurion for $6,600?? After I added all the upcharges to the Golden Eagle currently being built for me the list price was over $10,000 . . . and it isn't gonna be nearly what Fredzepp's Centurion is. If you're gonna compare guitars and costs, then compare the Citation to the Centurion. That's more of a fair comparison. Do you think you can feel and hear the difference in a true authentic 1959 Gibson Les Paul as compared to an R9 or a vert well made clone?? You talk about being able to hear and feel a $20,000 difference? How about a quarter of a million dollar difference?? I hope not to offend you . . . but your 3 posts really got under my finger nails. If we all try hard enough, we could still love Heritage without constantly bashing Gibson. I have sometimes visited the Les Paul forum. There have occasionally been posts referencing the H150. I have never read a single disparaging comment. The Heritage arch top guitar is without a doubt the greatest dollar value on the market for a high quality and beautiful American made arch top. That's why I own 6 of them. But a Gibson Citation . . . is a Gibson Citation!!! Gibson will make Citations as long as they can sell them. Even if I were a billionaire I wouldn't get one. I'd be too nervous around it. It would give me no joy. But I'd love to play someone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mgoetting Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 I don't get it. Is there a subliminal message? If I hold it up to a mirror will it say to worship Satan? Oh. Now I understand. Good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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