JeffB Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I have a Deville thats been modded to take el34's. It may have other mods as well. Straight up this amp sounds shockingly terrible. This possesses non of the adjectives to describe Fender tones. It also fails in the crunch department that I think the el34's were originally stuck in there for. I have gigged with these amps and know how they sound. This amp is not even close. Has anyone had any experience with this mod and know how I can reverse it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbp810 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 It's hard to say... (and unfortunately I'm not as intimately familiar with 6l6's or the Deville as I am with others, but I have a general idea). They may have just dropped them in and changed the biasing of the circuit (e.g. screen resistor)... or there could have been some rewiring on the tube socket pins... (again, I'm not that familiar with deville right of hand) Of course... it's also possible they could have also just straight swapped them out; in which case the El34's are probaly running way to cold which could also explain why it sounds terrible.... Perhaps some pictures of the insides might help? Also, do you by chance have a bias meter? Perhaps a quick check on what the tubes are running at now might rule out that last theory about a straight swap out) (or of course perhaps someone more familiar with the amp or the mod in question can chime in ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 Ive spent the last 3-4hrs reading threads and staring blankly at schematics. Reading about plate voltage, current draw and grid resistors. I dont know what any of it means Apparently the el34's draw too much current for this amp and could damage the out put transformer but there are a few things you can do, parts changed etc that changes this. Think returning it back to stock is a bit beyond me and could also kill me. There is a toggle switch installed under the chassis. Flicking it does slightly improve the sound. Not much though. I dont have a camera till Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 I just figured out who did the mods. According to his site: Convert to EL34 output valves ( this mod allows use of EL34 or 6L6 5881 valves ) Half power switch Fit upgraded Speakers such as Celestion, Weber or Vintage Style Alnico Speakers. These three things have obviously been done. It has Celestions in it. Theres a list of other things he's does to these amps so it could be quite a big job to undo it all. He charges like a wounded bull so I wont be taking it to him to undo it. Im going to have to sit on this one and ponder for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjsanders Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 maybe all you need do is replace tubes with 6L6s and rebias? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 Considered this and will try tomorrow. But, after reading some descriptions of the el34 mod and how they prevent the el34s from completely frying the out put transformer, Im thinking that even with 6l6's biased correctly there might be to much going on and altered for the amp to sound right anyway. The purpose of the mods (from what Ive read) is to make the drive channel more usable (FAIL. Plenty of great stomps that work well with this amp) So Im thinking for now that even with 6l6's in there is going to still sound like a bad, bad, drunken karaoke night Marshall impersonator. Cool if Im proven wrong. Theres a pretty cool story behind this amp, cooler if I can get it to sound right with out any expense. No story if I have to take it to a tech and pay for the displeasure. I will share it if its a "happy happy joy joy" moment. Suffer in silence if its a "Doh" or "meh" moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjsanders Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Considered this and will try tomorrow. ... I will share it if its a "happy happy joy joy" moment. Suffer in silence if its a "Doh" or "meh" moment. will hope for the former, "feh" on the latter. i gigged with one of these for a year or so & recall it with pleasure. good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbp810 Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 Well... I don't think the difference between el34 vs 6l6 would necessarily fry the OT. Yes, perhaps the "desired" imendance between the two pairs may vary slightly; but then again, this is likely not much more then the variation between putting in a speaker with a slightly less or slightly higher DCR (e.g. an "8ohm" speaker that is really 7.1, and another "8ohm" speaker that is really 5.2). The biggest difference is the heater current draw (1.5kma el34 vs 900ma 6l6), and that would put more importance on the stock fender PT being able to handle the extra draw of the el34 (which I believe it likely would handle) Of course, again without really knowing exactly what they did and what not I'm just spouting off garble Given that the El34's don't sound good... my best guess is still that swapping them out and re-biasing might do the trick (on that note, just out of curiosity did you ever try swapping out the tubes for another known good set? As in rule out that you just might have a botched set in place?) Of course, it would be nice to see if they re-wired any of the pins on the socket as well... probably a good indication of which probable direction to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 11, 2010 Author Share Posted December 11, 2010 Well... I don't think the difference between el34 vs 6l6 would necessarily fry the OT. Yes, perhaps the "desired" imendance between the two pairs may vary slightly; but then again, this is likely not much more then the variation between putting in a speaker with a slightly less or slightly higher DCR (e.g. an "8ohm" speaker that is really 7.1, and another "8ohm" speaker that is really 5.2). The biggest difference is the heater current draw (1.5kma el34 vs 900ma 6l6), and that would put more importance on the stock fender PT being able to handle the extra draw of the el34 (which I believe it likely would handle) Of course, again without really knowing exactly what they did and what not I'm just spouting off garble Given that the El34's don't sound good... my best guess is still that swapping them out and re-biasing might do the trick (on that note, just out of curiosity did you ever try swapping out the tubes for another known good set? As in rule out that you just might have a botched set in place?) Of course, it would be nice to see if they re-wired any of the pins on the socket as well... probably a good indication of which probable direction to take. Really Ive just been quoting and regurgitating stuff Ive read on other forums regarding the DeVille. I have no real knowledge about the workings of a tube amp. The heater current draw (1.5kma el34 vs 900ma 6l6) is what I meant and seemed to keep cropping up as a thing of concern in the threads I was reading. Most of the remedies seemed to involve replacing things which then meant other things had to be replaced to get back to the point where they had started. I swapped out the orig el34's with some Mesa el34's I had. Same result. I had gone through and systematically tried the pre amp tubes. That didnt really do much other than quieten down the amps hiss. I opened up the amp and took a gander. The pins on the socket appear to be stock and unchanged. I replaced the el34's with 6l6's and re biased to about 68mV. It was reading about 158mv when the el34's were in there. Im not sure what it should have read with el34's but I think 68mv is about right for 6l6's. Is it? Ive done all my play testing on the clean ch as Ive never liked the gain channel on these amps and cant use it as a reference for sound. The clean headroom seems to have improved by installing the 6l6's and re biasing but not as much as I was hoping or remember from past experience. The speakers in it are 2 16ohm Marshall G12 Vintage Celestions wired in parallel. I think but am not entirely sure, that these are rebadged v30's. According to the DeVilles owmers manual there were originally two 8ohm Fender Re-issue "Gold Label" 12" speakers. Im not sure if they were wired in series or parallel(16 or 4ohms). Im guessing parallel and 8 ohms should be a safe mismatch. Ive run the deville through a couple of 212 cabs and both do seem to help with the clean head room and get rid of the splatty distortion a little more. Still have some way to go yet to get this amp to where I think it probably should be. My op was kind of a "I have a piece of string. How long is it?" sort of post. Apologies for that. Didnt really know what the right questions to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 11, 2010 Author Share Posted December 11, 2010 Tightened speakers and cleaned all input jacks with deoxit. No diff. Everything is looking standard inside apart from the toggle switch that I assume is a 1/2 or full power switch or a pentode/triode switch. When I switch between the two modes I get a big clunk and buzz for a second. In one mode, after its been sitting in that mode for a while there is an intermittent farty buzz that starts happening. Neither positions on the switch improve the sound. Going to try and figure out how to disable this mod, get it out of the circuit. It maybe the culprit. Got a gig tonight and have to start getting ready, so Im going to have to abandon this amp and frame of mind for now and start getting ready to be "good fun party guy". Would actually rather be "stay at home and ponder amp guy". Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 12, 2010 Author Share Posted December 12, 2010 Ok.... great gig. Saw the sun come up. I again tried to read and understand schematics. Im sure its easy, if your are not me. How do I return this Back to this? DeVille schematic Does this look like something a bit of a novice should try to do? I had a bit more of a play through the amp and thought it was sounding quite a bit better than it did. Though still a lot less head room than I expect and a bit closed sounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjsanders Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 Ok.... great gig. Saw the sun come up. ... Does this look like something a bit of a novice should try to do? I had a bit more of a play through the amp and thought it was sounding quite a bit better than it did. Though still a lot less head room than I expect and a bit closed sounding. yeahman, well, i'm a novice, too, can read the mod, can sorta see where it would go. what i would do is pack it up & take it to a tech, so's i don't blow myself up...at the end of one of Gerald Weber's tube amp instructon videos he includes an outtake where he inadvertently zaps himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 13, 2010 Author Share Posted December 13, 2010 yeahman, well, i'm a novice, too, can read the mod, can sorta see where it would go. what i would do is pack it up & take it to a tech, so's i don't blow myself up...at the end of one of Gerald Weber's tube amp instructon videos he includes an outtake where he inadvertently zaps himself Cant leave it alone. Figured it out. Putting it back to stock. Have stuff I need. Discharged caps. Disassembled. Ready to start. The amp has been a victim of a few mods that lowers the volume or the point where it starts clipping. I think they wanted it to be a Marshall. It starts breaking up at a very low volume, or it did, its getting better with every after market mod removed. Ive scanned the web for mods to HRD's and it seems like every single one of them have been done to this amp. Some are as simple as re soldering something, some involve returning parts to stock. I have a few dead amps I'm taking parts from. Its probably nothing to some one who works on amps all the time but I'm learning quite a bit as I go so I'm feeling good about it. My biggest fear is I might want to build my own amp after this. I dont need another distraction from actually playing guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameBand Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 Buy a DeVille, take it home, use it as a model of what it should be, copy the electronics and when you're done, return the one you just bought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 13, 2010 Author Share Posted December 13, 2010 Buy a DeVille, take it home, use it as a model of what it should be, copy the electronics and when you're done, return the one you just bought. Kinda did exactly that. Though not being familiar with colour codes and values of components I still had to research what it was all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameBand Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 Kinda did exactly that. Though not being familiar with colour codes and values of components I still had to research what it was all about. Here are some parts resources for fender Amps that I have done business with and recommend. http://musicpartsguru.com/ This company is The Authorized Fender distributor for current and Vintage fender guitar and amp parts. I was given their contact info by Fender. http://www.mojotone.com/ This company is a boutique upgrade company specializing in vintage amp upgrades and has a lot of fender parts and wiring diagrams. I hope it helps. In the end, I'm sure it will be fun and worth the pain. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Well.... here goes nothing. Taking it to a gig tonight. I think Ive done about all I can and I think Ive done it right. Good clean chimey ching with the strat. May have the happy happy joy joy end to this story after all. Its sounding quite good just hope it doesnt cark it mid song. Taking a Fender Concert as back up. It will be set up on stand by ready to go. Strat and H150 tonight. Scrappy R'n'R. No acoustic Haven't done an electric gig for a little while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulk1 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Tully, could be you've just found a second vocation to fill all that time you have not sleeping. Looking forward to the gig report. Hope the DeVille stood up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Tully, First, right away, my hat is off to you! Great work! Now that you have gotten that one fixed back to a usable state, it's time for you to do up a kit build. As good as the tone is that you are getting now, I am 100% positive you have been bitten by the amp whisperer bug, and there is only one cure...to smell the solder fumes! Check out the stuff from Allen amplification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfan Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Tully, Sounds like you resolved your problem? Just in case, I've modded / and refurbed several amps. This site has pro techs who share their knowledge with us mere mortals as well as newbies. helped me out a few times. Music Electronics Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Ok. Cool gig. I gotta play more electric guitar gigs. I love it. So much easier than acoustic in some ways. Scrappy rnr is good fun. Big loud drums and thumping fat bass. I gotta get back to this. Amp was great. Good sound. Clarity and punch. Had a moment where I had to laugh though. Ive gone to all this trouble to get this amp as clean as possible(sound) and then I had my RAT pedal turned on all night . Gain low but volume pushing the amp. Sounded great. Just thought it funny that I had to clean the amp up so I could play it dirty Rat settings. May have bumped them slightly but pretty much how it sat all night. The H150 has a voice of authority doesnt it! All this acoustic playing makes me forget about how great the H150 sounds in a band mix. I think the DeVille may have started loosing a bit of definition towards the end of the last bracket. A bit woolly and mushy. Not terrible. Creamy leads but not so tight riddums. Dont think it was any hotter than any of my other amps would have been by that same stage though. Overall the amp sounded great, took pedals well and only made one noise that gave me a pang of "oh no", and that was at the start of the night and it never repeated it again at any time. So, thats it in a nut shell......... Im going to start researching amp kits. Edit: Wow, thats a big gnarly picture of the Rat. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbp810 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Ok. Cool gig. I gotta play more electric guitar gigs. I love it. So much easier than acoustic in some ways. Scrappy rnr is good fun. Big loud drums and thumping fat bass. I gotta get back to this. Amp was great. Good sound. Clarity and punch. Had a moment where I had to laugh though. Ive gone to all this trouble to get this amp as clean as possible(sound) and then I had my RAT pedal turned on all night . Gain low but volume pushing the amp. Sounded great. Just thought it funny that I had to clean the amp up so I could play it dirty Rat settings. May have bumped them slightly but pretty much how it sat all night. The H150 has a voice of authority doesnt it! All this acoustic playing makes me forget about how great the H150 sounds in a band mix. I think the DeVille may have started loosing a bit of definition towards the end of the last bracket. A bit woolly and mushy. Not terrible. Creamy leads but not so tight riddums. Dont think it was any hotter than any of my other amps would have been by that same stage though. Overall the amp sounded great, took pedals well and only made one noise that gave me a pang of "oh no", and that was at the start of the night and it never repeated it again at any time. So, thats it in a nut shell......... Im going to start researching amp kits. Edit: Wow, thats a big gnarly picture of the Rat. Sorry about that. Awesome! Glad it all worked out, well done sir! This is how the bug starts... a mod or a repair here or there... start researching kits, parts, schematics... and before you know it you're hooked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitBlues Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Awesome! Glad it all worked out, well done sir! This is how the bug starts... a mod or a repair here or there... start researching kits, parts, schematics... and before you know it you're hooked! Yep, you'd be the one to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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