Better Than Reverb

[blackjack]

The HOC being most knowledgeable, I expect many have used this or heard descriptions. But I'll take a shot, because this is the most natural effect I've heard with guitar, as it's actually created acoustically.

 

This is the Haas effect, but on a smaller scale. You might know it as stereo delay, but unless you set it up correctly, it's not going to sound like this.

 

Run two amps where the primary amp is fed the dry signal only, and the second amp is fed what is termed "straight delay". Meaning that the second amp does not receive the dry copy, ***only the later signal***. Stereo delay units should allow you a wet-only output to use for this. To verify the set-up, you turn down the primary amp, and pop the strings. If you hear no initial signal, only a late one, then you're ready to adjust it.

 

Set it for one reflection, and no more ("one ping only").

Then set it to slightly lower volume than the primary.

Then turn up the primary amp.

Shorten the delay time until it just disappears into the mix.

 

The result is better than a reverb tank or pedal; it's the ambience part and nothing else (kinda freaky). It comes out of nowhere, and does not sound like slapback, or a tank, or an effect. It sounds good with the amps close or separated, whether you're standing right over it, or out front.

 

I mentioned this to a guy who plays in NYC, jazz and progressive stuff. Great player. He concurred that's exactly how he got "reverb". He ran his botique amp, but added a small second amp (a Radio-Shack hi-fi). People routinely asked him about his great reverb.

 

Just for reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_effect

[t0aj15]

That type of 'reverb' as well as many others are very easy to obtain using a good delay unit. My personal favorite is one that Allen Holdsworth helped design called the Yamaha UD Stomp. After they were discontinued more & more folks found out what a powerful unit it is and prices for used ones keep going up, if you're lucky enough to even find one cause folks like me that have em have no intention of ever letting them go.

[blackjack]

I keep meeting guitarists that aren't familiar with this use of delay though. If a mono delay allows the mix to go all wet, then it can be used if you split out to the primary amp before the pedal, or slave out of the primary into the delay. As for just a nice effect, I can set up mono delay with just one amp and get some good ambience with no slapback character, but this described above is in a different ballpark.

[kbp810]

Thanks for the tip! I love the sound I get playing through two amps at once, never really dawned on me to have one set on a slight delay.

 

I plan on having lot's of fun with this!

[DetroitBlues]

Thanks for the tip! I love the sound I get playing through two amps at once, never really dawned on me to have one set on a slight delay.

 

I plan on having lot's of fun with this!

 

D. Clone and a TW clone going at once. Sounds like you'll need another 4x12 for that! Rock on!

[GuitArtMan]

This is my favorite Haas effect

 

 

No reverb though...

[koula901]

Hmm, that's interesting.

Strange as it sounds, I've found that when I crank up the 5 watt epi, there's a slight kind of natural reverb.

And, I wonder, if anyone else has found that since you started using delay, you no longer feel a need for the reverb. I can set my delay to sound exactly like reverb (but rarely do anymore, b/c I want the delay).

[tulk1]

I don't want to lug another amp to a gig. One is enough. So, I'll have to get my verb thru a pedal. This does sound interesting, tho'. It's amazing to me what people can figure out just playing with the technology available ... and get things the designers probably had no intention of producing. Cool!!

[blackjack]

This Haas Effect is how they keep the volume down at large events. Say the Stones are playing in Rio for 10 zillion people. The field is so deep that just the stage PA would need to be way too loud to reach the really far out crowd. So they add more speakers on scaffolding, 100 meters downfield (they only have meters there, not yards), and still pointing away from the stage. They then delay that signal to let the original signal "catch up", and bypass the secondary speakers just a bit. As long as it's delayed about 25ms behind the original sound, the brain can still register the source as being the stage speakers. They do this indoors for big rooms as well sometimes. This simple stuff amazes me.

[sheetsofsound]

pat metheny and adam rogers both use this technique

[Joe]

I'm having trouble visualizing the set up. Do you use a delay pedal before the slave amp?

Can it be a mono pedal?

[blackjack]

The main amp is dry only, and the second amp is one delayed copy. As long as the second amp doesn't output the initial sound. If your particular mono delay allows you to turn the mix all the way to delay and it no longer outputs the initial sound, then you're on. When I had a DOD mono delay, it did not allow it.

 

I run guitar, cord, to a Y adapter that feeds the primary amp and the delay pedal. Then out of the pedal to the secondary. Does that make sense?

[Joe]

The main amp is dry only, and the second amp is one delayed copy. As long as the second amp doesn't output the initial sound. If your particular mono delay allows you to turn the mix all the way to delay and it no longer outputs the initial sound, then you're on. When I had a DOD mono delay, it did not allow it.

 

I run guitar, cord, to a Y adapter that feeds the primary amp and the delay pedal. Then out of the pedal to the secondary. Does that make sense?

That's clear to me now.Thanks for the info.I'm going to try that tonight.

[koula901]

I don't want to lug another amp to a gig. One is enough. So, I'll have to get my verb thru a pedal. This does sound interesting, tho'. It's amazing to me what people can figure out just playing with the technology available ... and get things the designers probably had no intention of producing. Cool!!

 

an early example of that is finding the in-between notch positions of a strat - Leo Fender had no intentions of that hapenning.

[smurph1]

I don't want to lug another amp to a gig. One is enough. So, I'll have to get my verb thru a pedal. This does sound interesting, tho'. It's amazing to me what people can figure out just playing with the technology available ... and get things the designers probably had no intention of producing. Cool!!

+1..Exactly what I was going to say..Maybe after I hit the big time and get a roadie named Bart..

[smurph1]

This is my favorite Haas effect

 

 

No reverb though...

Mmmmm..Guacamole!!

[DetroitBlues]

My basement is has so many flat hard surfaces, I barely use my reverb now...

[yoslate]

I hope he doesn't mind my "outing" him, but those of you who played "The Note" at PSPII or "Felix" last year, or who heard Vince Lewis play "Felix" in Fred's videos, have heard Blackjack's amps. My friend does not just talk about it!

[FredZepp]

This Haas Effect is how they keep the volume down at large events. Say the Stones are playing in Rio for 10 zillion people. The field is so deep that just the stage PA would need to be way too loud to reach the really far out crowd. So they add more speakers on scaffolding, 100 meters downfield (they only have meters there, not yards), and still pointing away from the stage. They then delay that signal to let the original signal "catch up", and bypass the secondary speakers just a bit. As long as it's delayed about 25ms behind the original sound, the brain can still register the source as being the stage speakers. They do this indoors for big rooms as well sometimes. This simple stuff amazes me.

Ahh yes, I remember the documentary in the Stones concert videos that detailed the sound system. That was certainly quite interesting.

 

The ability to use room acoustics or a simulation of them is a great way to create depth. It is what made many of the Led Zeppelin recordings have such great sound. Jimmy was very experienced in the Studio using mike placement.

I remember making a recording a long time ago with a mandolin where I was in a very lively, bright soundiing room and put one mike closeup and another at the far end of the room and it sounded great just using the room acoustics, very full .

[FredZepp]

I hope he doesn't mind my "outing" him, but those of you who played "The Note" at PSPII or "Felix" last year, or who heard Vince Lewis play "Felix" in Fred's videos, have heard Blackjack's amps. My friend does not just talk about it!

I had the chance to play a bit through that amp at PSP II and enjoyed it.... high quality stuff.

 

Thanks for the reminder... I may have already known this, and forgotten.

 

That would explain why his interest in and knowledge of the subject.

[blackjack]

Dear Abby,

Jimmy Page, yes... I need that explained. A long while back, I heard he would take an amp in the studio and mic it both near and far. One of those signals would get a delay to smush the two back into the same sound field and capture both of the ambiences. A sound man, a maniac really, explained this to me at a frenetic pace, and I still don't know exactly what he described. It could be this same deal we've been talking about, or something else.

 

All I know is when he explained it, it just sounded like you would end up with bad phase distortion, But he ended the explanation with "AND THAT'S THE SECRET TO THE JIMMY PAGE SOUND!!!". Since I didn't grasp the process, I just stood there, glazed, feeling like a soft lead bullet had hit me in the head but only bounced off. Someone had just offered up the secret of the JP sound and I missed it.

 

Clueless in Greensboro

[FredZepp]

Dear Abby,

Jimmy Page, yes... I need that explained. A long while back, I heard he would take an amp in the studio and mic it both near and far. One of those signals would get a delay to smush the two back into the same sound field and capture both of the ambiences. A sound man, a maniac really, explained this to me at a frenetic pace, and I still don't know exactly what he described. It could be this same deal we've been talking about, or something else.

 

All I know is when he explained it, it just sounded like you would end up with bad phase distortion, But he ended the explanation with "AND THAT'S THE SECRET TO THE JIMMY PAGE SOUND!!!". Since I didn't grasp the process, I just stood there, glazed, feeling like a soft lead bullet had hit me in the head but only bounced off. Someone had just offered up the secret of the JP sound and I missed it.

 

Clueless in Greensboro

Your maniac sound man probably has quite a few interesting insights into JP's techniques, I am sure that it has many facets.

I won't claim to have any real knowledge of what he did, but I have had some enjoyment while playing with the concepts. I do wish that I could make more time for experimenting with that kind of thing. It is such a great feeling whtn you create something and manage to capture some great sound.