Annoying getting out of tune

[romk]

Hi there everyone,

 

My H-150 has been giving me a headache - the strings tend to get out of tune all the time. No matter how new/worn out they are, their caliber or brand neither matter. I've even exchanged the stock Grover tuners for locking Grover. Seems it doesn't work. What might be the problem? Thanks!

 

Good luck & play

[drewzee87t]

most likely you should either setup the guitar or have it setup professionally. The nuts on heritages tend to be "plinky" so will cause some minor problems. Sounds like you need a setup.

[brentrocks]

sounds like neck movement

 

what part of the country are you in?

 

my stat has been giving me problems too....i put a set of 12s on it Monday to try to draw more bow in the neck.  took off the 12s and put a fresh set of 9s on it and it is not holding tune very well either....hopefully it will settle down today

 

but what i was driving at is in Michigan the humidity changes all the time and the necks on my guitars move a lot.

[big bob]

before you spend the money for a pro setup. (don't want to sound like a dick here) but check to make sure you are putting your strings on with as little wiggle room as possible.

 

for example: on my 575 the ball ends of the string seat perfect in any direction with no effort, however on the millennium with the schaller tail piece the ball ends fit better layind sideways rather than standing up (like a doughnut,  not a car tire)

 

how many turns do you have at the tuners the more coils the better the chance of slippage.

 

anyway don't want to lecture or sound like a dick.

 

here is a nice youtube

 

[GuitArtMan]

I find that 99% of tuning problems are either the nut, or the guitar wasn't strung properly.  Guitarists had played in tune and stayed in tune for decades before there were locking tuners.  Try lubricating the nut slots with a tiny bit of chap stick (yes chap stick).  It's cheap, it's mostly parafin which is a good lubricant and stays in place well.  If that doesn't fix it, pick up a copy of either or both of these books - they have excellent sections on how to string your guitars:

 

 

[yoslate]

All good suggestions!  Also, are you stretching your strings when you first put them on?  Essential!!!  Also, I've experienced more fickle wood movement in all of my guitars as we've moved into spring this year than I ever have.  We kept the temperature in the house particularly low this winter.  I don't know if that's the cause, but my necks have never moved around as much during a change of seasons. 

[pushover]

All good suggestions!  Also, are you stretching your strings when you first put them on?  Essential!!!  Also, I've experienced more fickle wood movement in all of my guitars as we've moved into spring this year than I ever have.  We kept the temperature in the house particularly low this winter.  I don't know if that's the cause, but my necks have never moved around as much during a change of seasons. 

 

Yoslate where are you located? I'm in Virgina. I think it's really interesting that for some reason I have also noticed alot more change in my instruments going from winter to "whatever it is they're calling this odd spring weather" than usual. I thought it was just me, and what's really surprised me was that I even noticed it on the acoustics, which are usually fine all year around.

 

As far as the out of tune thing is concerned, When I've had similar problems, it was almost always a sticky nut, so my solution was to crush some pencil led (which is really carbon) and put some tiny amount of the residue in the nut slots. I was skeptical, but it worked for me.

[yoslate]

Hey, Push, I'm just south of you, in central North Carolina.  Never had my instruments move around so much!

[GuitArtMan]

As far as the out of tune thing is concerned, When I've had similar problems, it was almost always a sticky nut, so my solution was to crush some pencil led (which is really carbon) and put some tiny amount of the residue in the nut slots. I was skeptical, but it worked for me.

I used to use pencil lead as well, though I never bothered to crush it.  I just sharpened the pencil really sharp and then just rubbed it in the nut slots.  I always thought it was graphite - not carbon.  Graphite is a well known dry lubricant, just ask any locksmith.  I'm serious, try chap stick.  For me it works better and doen't turn the nut grey.

[SouthpawGuy]

Hi there everyone,

 

My H-150 has been giving me a headache - the strings tend to get out of tune all the time. No matter how new/worn out they are, their caliber or brand neither matter. I've even exchanged the stock Grover tuners for locking Grover. Seems it doesn't work. What might be the problem? Thanks!

 

Good luck & play

 

Have you considered the height of the pickups ?

 

If they are adjusted too close to the strings they can create out of tune effects, as you may know already this is a particular problem with Strats aka "Stratitis".

You don't say what pickups you are using, have you changed them to a high output model ?

 

Check out this article

http://www.bothner.co.za/articles/pickupheight.shtml

 

" Gibson Humbucker Height Recommendations

Bass Side Treble Side

Neck Pickup 3/32" 1/16"

Bridge Pickup 3/32" 1/16" "

 

Hope this helps

[cod65]

Also I'd like to check if we are talking about an intonation issue here. Are you talking about it changing (from being in tune all over the neck) , or are you talking about  it only being in tune in the first few frets ? How long does it take to feel 'out of tune' all over ?

[pushover]

I used to use pencil lead as well, though I never bothered to crush it.  I just sharpened the pencil really sharp and then just rubbed it in the nut slots.  I always thought it was graphite - not carbon.  Graphite is a well known dry lubricant, just ask any locksmith.  I'm serious, try chap stick.  For me it works better and doen't turn the nut grey.

 

Thanks for the correction.. It IS Grapite, not carbon..  Dunno what was connecting my brain to my fingers?

[cod65]

Thanks for the correction.. It IS Grapite, not carbon..  Dunno what was connecting my brain to my fingers?

 

graphite IS carbon

[plexirocker 68]

romk, 99% of the time it's the nut. Take it to a luthier who KNOWS what he's doing to check for binding in the nut.

 

I use graphite in the nut slots as well. It's not pretty, chap stick works fine too. There's a tone of downward pressure on those nut slots. Even a well cut nut slot could use some lubricating help.

 

When I was doing a lot of studio work playing in tune is absolutely critical. I would tune up and 1 minute later I would check the tuning and it would drift flat, the graphite pretty much stopped all my tuning issues and the drift problems. I can play all my guitars hard for a full set of 10-11 songs on a gig and strobe tube dead on. It's almost always all in the nut.

 

plexi

[romk]

Also I'd like to check if we are talking about an intonation issue here. Are you talking about it changing (from being in tune all over the neck) , or are you talking about  it only being in tune in the first few frets ? How long does it take to feel 'out of tune' all over ?

No it's not intonation. Scale is adjusted fine. It's about a minute of normal strumming and some strings are not exactly what they're supposed to be.

[romk]

Have you considered the height of the pickups ?

 

If they are adjusted too close to the strings they can create out of tune effects, as you may know already this is a particular problem with Strats aka "Stratitis".

You don't say what pickups you are using, have you changed them to a high output model ?

Never thought this might be the issue. But the original Schaller pickups have been replaced with SD'59 in neck and Gibson '57 Classic Plus in bridge. Don't feel any side effect with neither of them.

[romk]

sounds like neck movement

 

what part of the country are you in?

 

my stat has been giving me problems too....i put a set of 12s on it Monday to try to draw more bow in the neck.  took off the 12s and put a fresh set of 9s on it and it is not holding tune very well either....hopefully it will settle down today

 

but what i was driving at is in Michigan the humidity changes all the time and the necks on my guitars move a lot.

Man, I'm in Moscow, Russia  ;D

[romk]

Thank you everyone for sharing your ideas. I'm gonna re-string my H-150 and try chap stick or graphite. I'll  report on treatment results.

Thanks folks!

[Dick Seacup]

Man, I'm in Moscow, Russia  ;D

 

Za druzhbu myezhdu narodami!

 

Years ago I worked at a college that had a significant population of Russian students.  Either only good looking Russian women want to study abroad, or Russian women in general are very attractive.  The thing that surprised me the most, however, was that they (the women that I interacted with) were exceptionally well mannered and gracious, which stood in stark contrast to their American counterparts.

[GuitArtMan]

No it's not intonation. Scale is adjusted fine. It's about a minute of normal strumming and some strings are not exactly what they're supposed to be.

You do stretch your strings, don't you?  String up, tune up, and then one by one gently but firmly grab each string around the 12th fret and pull, re-tune, pull again, do this until the string stays in tune and then move to the next string.  After that re-tune the entire guitar and it should stay in tune this time - after lubricating those nut slots.

[chico]

All good suggestions.  I had the same problem w/my 150.  No matter what I did, the B string would constantly need tuning.  It just didin't seem right to me that a guitar of that caliber would have a tuning issue.  And, I have a HFT 445 acoustic that never (well mostly never) needs any tuning other than atmospheric adjustment so I was suspicious that the 150's tuning issue wasn't "normal". 

 

So last time i went back home (Kal) to visit Mom I took my 150 (and my Millie DC with a similar prob) with me to the plant.  Rendall stopped what he was doing, took an eyeball look and measured string height and commented, "yep, you got a problem, can you leave it?"  Having to get back to WI with my rental car and not wanting to pay an extra day's charge for that I left them.  I got a call from the factory an hour later as I was blasting down I-94 somewhere in SW Mich. that my guitars were ready to pick up.  UGGGH....too far away to turn around, so I made arrrangements for a family member to pick em up, which they did.  Total charge: $20

 

I have yet to get the guitar, but will be reunited in a couple weeks.  I am so excited to see how it'll play and stay in tune.  Boy do I miss the old gals.

H150sma.jpg

H150sma.jpg_thumb

[romk]

I wonder what they've done at the factory?

[Bombassa]

I wonder what they've done at the factory?

 

You'd better wonder what they did not do at the factory.

Did you check the nut ? The bottom of the slots (cuts) should be smooth and U-shaped. I recently had to do that work myself with a H150. The cuts where far from U-shaped at the bottom. In fact there where some small cuts at the bottoms of the cuts. That caused a lot of tuning problems. Half an hours gentle work with the tip of a round needle file, and a touch of a pencil. (That's graphite). Now it's perfect.

[Mikenov]

I had the same problems you describe. My H150 kept the worst tuning of ANY of my guitars. The G and B strings were the problem. I installed lockers, took it to 2 techs . The second tech noted a twist in the neck, did some adjustments, the twist did not go away but the tuning issue improved. This time it would go out of tune at the E only and less frequently. Then I sent it back to Heritage, they straightened the neck and it keeps good tune now. Allot of the work the first tech did was on the nut but it was never fixed there. Hate to give you worst case scenario but you described a similar issue and I wanted to let you know what I have experienced. Good luck!

[Cryoman]

I'm of the school that 99% of all tuning problems start with the nut. I replace all my nuts with bone as a matter of course now and I have absolutely no tuning problems or "tink" on any of my guitars.  Gibson, Fender, Martin, Heritage, PRS - none of these can afford the extra 1 hour of time it takes to cut and tweak by hand a bone nut essential for best tuning, playability and sound performance (as it would drive the guitar price up by $100 and beyond the acceptable marketing price point).  PLEK machines do a great job grinding frets to height and at cutting a synthetic material nut, BUT that PLEK process cuts the nut for the "average" guitar and for a set of strings anywhere between .008 and .011 (1st string) - the penultimate compromise.  The PLEK cutting of the nut does not back angle the string, it does not feather out the back side of the nut....  I cut and install camel bone nuts in less than an hour for about $3.50 in materials, 2 beers and with a lot of fun.  A bone nut is the best investment you can make in your guitar, IMHO.  Not entirely because of the material, (although I think this is important), but simply because it forces you to put an hour's worth of time and effort in tweaking and perfecting one of only two points that the strings of your guitar touches.  Hope you'll look for my other posts on this topic.  It's easy, it's cheap, I'll walk you throught it.  I'll call you and tell you everything I've learned in doing it. 

 

Cheers, Cryoman

 

PS. Here are 2 photos of the nut I replaced on my 2003 Gibson SG Standard. In the 1st photo are the roughed nut blank, the original plastic POS, and a blank camel bone nut.  The 2nd photo is the finished product, I hope this photo speaks for itself.  The guitar plays better than Gibson ever meant it to, or could afford to have it.... Heritage factory nuts are plastic (Corian, Micarta, Tusq - I forget which is which - they are all plastic).  Heritage guitars are truly worthy of having this extra detail done correctly.

 

PS.  Lastly, note how nicely the unbleached camel bone nut matches the creme colored binding on the neck.  Note the difference in color with the original POS plastic nut....

 

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd302/cryoman_bucket/Nuts007.jpg[/img]

 

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd302/cryoman_bucket/Nuts009.jpg[/img]