Brentrocks wins over Scuba200Ft

[Spectrum13]

My Bad!

 

Sorry guys my sense of humor at times needs to be explained. Attempting to coin "forum wars" as something just as silly as the sceen in Duck Soup "to war to war this is a thing we can't ignore".

 

Whatever our own experience is owning a Gibson or Heritage be that positive or negative, once we share that subjective experience on a forum, reactions happen. One can be informed, educated, entertained or angered depending on the logic and experience of the poster. Not unlike the TGP members that post a guy eating popcorn when these arguments come up, in my view they can get stupid funny pretty fast.

 

Scuba, at the HOC we are brand loyal and we understand that Heritage makes 1200 guitars each year and some of them have various problems and some dealers did not back up their customers. But you post your negative experiences so many times on each post whenever the Heritage vs Gibson topic come up that IMO you are being more subjective and emotional than logical. I thought it was funny that Brents 357 ended a really stupid funny "Forum War" by displaying what we HOC member know are just incredible photo's of Marv Lamb's (yes he still builds en) Korina 357, of HFB's 357 or Tim's quilted 575.

 

When someone comes on a forum wanting to choose between a Heritage or Gibson why not focus on facts like Marv, Ren and Jim are still making handmade unique custom instruments today at a fair price. Play it before buying or ask about their return policy.

 

In 2007 I was looking for a Goldtop. Learned about Heritage on a forum and found a 150 in a local shop and went to see it. The shop employee told me Heritage has problems with their truss rod and he could not guarantee the neck. Glad I never believed him. Sorry you had a bad experience with your Heritage but don't deny that someone else might get a fantastic 150 at a great price.

[millemots]

This joint gets wierder every day.

[JeffB]

This joint gets wierder every day.

To many damn guitar players. Not enough drummers.

[kbp810]

To many damn guitar players. Not enough drummers.

How many drummers does it take to... nevermind, I won't go there

[JohnCovach]

"This is a VERY strange thread....So you guys find threads that contain customer issues with Heritage, and try to "win" the argument? Very Stepford. That scuba200ft is me. And I am no troller. I am a legitimate former, and MAYBE future customer who had had two very bad experiences. I am also the owner of well over 100 guitars, most of which can be seen on my website. www.charvels.com.

It is this very type of attitude and weirdness that pigeonholes the owners of guitars like Heritage, Rickenbacker and alot of the smaller builders. The belief that any issue a person may have had, must be either made up or their fault. It smacks of the Ernie Ball forum mentality."

 

I'm certain that your description of the guitars you've owned is accurate. In the years I've been on this board, Heritage QC issues have come up repeatedly, so nobody should doubt that there have been guitars that came out of that shop that were below the usual standard. Gibson QC is a common topic in gear forums too, even custom-shop instruments. So as far as that goes, knowing that there are bad instruments out there from all makers--or at least from the two companies being compared in the original thread--does not really help anybody else decide between the two. It helps you because of your direct experience, but I can also say that I've had about 25 Heritage guitars over the past 10 years, from the 80s, 90s, and 00s, and all have been fine. I've also had dozens of Gibsons and had good luck with them as well. I buy used mostly, so that probably makes it less likely that I'll get a bad one, but maybe not.

 

If you post in an aggressive way, however, you can hardly be surprised if people react negatively. The language above is full of insults, and it would be easy to go back to your original posts on TGP and show that your tone there was angry and dismissive of any other points of view--doggedly so, in fact. It's never smart or even useful to tell people how you think they should act on these kinds of forums, but my experience is that insulting language will usually prompt angry responses. I'm sure you feel a bit misunderstood, but that's probably only because people did understand part of your attitude correctly.

[Patrick]

"This is a VERY strange thread....So you guys find threads that contain customer issues with Heritage, and try to "win" the argument? Very Stepford. That scuba200ft is me. And I am no troller. I am a legitimate former, and MAYBE future customer who had had two very bad experiences. I am also the owner of well over 100 guitars, most of which can be seen on my website. www.charvels.com.

It is this very type of attitude and weirdness that pigeonholes the owners of guitars like Heritage, Rickenbacker and alot of the smaller builders. The belief that any issue a person may have had, must be either made up or their fault. It smacks of the Ernie Ball forum mentality."

 

I'm certain that your description of the guitars you've owned is accurate. In the years I've been on this board, Heritage QC issues have come up repeatedly, so nobody should doubt that there have been guitars that came out of that shop that were below the usual standard. Gibson QC is a common topic in gear forums too, even custom-shop instruments. So as far as that goes, knowing that there are bad instruments out there from all makers--or at least from the two companies being compared in the original thread--does not really help anybody else decide between the two. It helps you because of your direct experience, but I can also say that I've had about 25 Heritage guitars over the past 10 years, from the 80s, 90s, and 00s, and all have been fine. I've also had dozens of Gibsons and had good luck with them as well. I buy used mostly, so that probably makes it less likely that I'll get a bad one, but maybe not.

 

If you post in an aggressive way, however, you can hardly be surprised if people react negatively. The language above is full of insults, and it would be easy to go back to your original posts on TGP and show that your tone there was angry and dismissive of any other points of view--doggedly so, in fact. It's never smart or even useful to tell people how you think they should act on these kinds of forums, but my experience is that insulting language will usually prompt angry responses. I'm sure you feel a bit misunderstood, but that's probably only because people did understand part of your attitude correctly.

 

That's very well said Mr. John Covach. Like I always say . . . "how you shout to the mountain, is how it will come back to you"

[scuba200ft]

JohnCovach, if you found the way I posted to be aggressive, I suspect your idea of aggressive music from your normal Peter Paul and Mary would be a hell bent evening with Muskrat love. And those "insults" as you call them are exactly the way anyone would react when they come across a band of guitar owners, virtually high fiving one another on a message board because they think they "won" a dorky online keyboard fight.

 

Seeing as you would find it so easy to go back and find my posts that are "angry" ( I cant remember the last time I was angry about anything), and dismissive (In order to be dismissive, I would need someone to actually approach me), I look forward to your assessment.

 

Or, you could just stop trying to be high and mighty, and admit, you may be wrong about me. You won't find any posturing in my posts. I don't care about Gibson. Hell, I own over 40 Custom Shop Charvels, but if they were dsimissive (there's that word) to me regarding an issue, i'd rip them the same way.

 

I DO care about companies that are dismissive when they have $2k of your money for a 2 day old guitar that blows. If you are better then me, and when asked your opinion , you would be all freaking rosy about it, you're a better man than I.

[JohnCovach]

JohnCovach, if you found the way I posted to be aggressive, I suspect your idea of aggressive music from your normal Peter Paul and Mary would be a hell bent evening with Muskrat love. And those "insults" as you call them are exactly the way anyone would react when they come across a band of guitar owners, virtually high fiving one another on a message board because they think they "won" a dorky online keyboard fight.

 

Seeing as you would find it so easy to go back and find my posts that are "angry" ( I cant remember the last time I was angry about anything), and dismissive (In order to be dismissive, I would need someone to actually approach me), I look forward to your assessment.

 

Or, you could just stop trying to be high and mighty, and admit, you may be wrong about me. You won't find any posturing in my posts. I don't care about Gibson. Hell, I own over 40 Custom Shop Charvels, but if they were dsimissive (there's that word) to me regarding an issue, i'd rip them the same way.

 

I DO care about companies that are dismissive when they have $2k of your money for a 2 day old guitar that blows. If you are better then me, and when asked your opinion , you would be all freaking rosy about it, you're a better man than I.

 

Now that you point all this out, I can't imagine why I ever thought you were angry, aggressive, or dismissive.

[Patrick]

JohnCovach, if you found the way I posted to be aggressive, I suspect your idea of aggressive music from your normal Peter Paul and Mary would be a hell bent evening with Muskrat love. And those "insults" as you call them are exactly the way anyone would react when they come across a band of guitar owners, virtually high fiving one another on a message board because they think they "won" a dorky online keyboard fight.

 

Seeing as you would find it so easy to go back and find my posts that are "angry" ( I cant remember the last time I was angry about anything), and dismissive (In order to be dismissive, I would need someone to actually approach me), I look forward to your assessment.

 

Or, you could just stop trying to be high and mighty, and admit, you may be wrong about me. You won't find any posturing in my posts. I don't care about Gibson. Hell, I own over 40 Custom Shop Charvels, but if they were dsimissive (there's that word) to me regarding an issue, i'd rip them the same way.

 

I DO care about companies that are dismissive when they have $2k of your money for a 2 day old guitar that blows. If you are better then me, and when asked your opinion , you would be all freaking rosy about it, you're a better man than I.

 

We have all read your posts regarding Heritage as a company, which means their people, as well as their products. We ALL found your posts to be childish and insulting. Yet, you don't see them at all as bashing. I wonder why that is? In my earlier post, I attempted to try to let calmer heads prevail, even complimenting you on your ability to receive some of these posts as being in good humor. Your attitude betrays your personality! John Covach gave you a mildly and diplomatically worded explanation as to why some here found your comments to be objectionable. Then you come back and trash one of our HOC brothers? I don't know who you are . . . but it's clear that you think you're someone or something special. Get over yourself man!! "I've got over 100 guitars" I've got over 40 Charvels" Big fucking deal!!! No one care about your guitars . . . and no one here is going to trash them or the company who made them. "I'm no bong carrying teenager" Really?? Well you're sure as hell acting like one. Regarding your comment about those here on HOC who were, as you put it, "high fiving each other over some dorky online keyboard fight" I agree with your sentiment. It was inappropriate. And, it's probably what put you in such an aggressive and hostile frame of mind. But, you need to reassess the "dorky" comments that precipitated the discourse. You don't come into our house and pick a fight with any of us . . . least of all one of the nicest and easiest going members. You need to get your head out of your ass . . . determine whether or not you care to adjust your attitude and remain a part of this forum . . . or you can go some where else and tell them about all of your 100 guitars. We don't need this shit here man.

[rjsanders]

scuba, yer crackin' me up...Covach? aggressive? PeterPaul&Mary?

 

 

which reminds me - someone posted pix of a badly cut nut and it was being worked out (eventually) by the dealer. did that ever get resolved? that was one of the most egregious examples of poor QC i've seen here...(among the manymanyoverwhelmingly many e.g.s of high quality, of course)

[Guest HRB853370]

This is a VERY strange thread....So you guys find threads that contain customer issues with Heritage, and try to "win" the argument? Very Stepford. That scuba200ft is me. And I am no troller. I am a legitimate former, and MAYBE future customer who had had two very bad experiences. I am also the owner of well over 100 guitars, most of which can be seen on my website. www.charvels.com.

It is this very type of attitude and weirdness that pigeonholes the owners of guitars like Heritage, Rickenbacker and alot of the smaller builders. The belief that any issue a person may have had, must be either made up or their fault. It smacks of the Ernie Ball forum mentality.

 

The irony is, I am right now in the process of negotiation on yet ANOTHER Heritage. I am no loyalist to any brand, unlike clearly many of you are. I like ALL guitars, it's not a cult, it's music.

 

Spectrum, Scuba was not "all like Heritage sucks man". I am not Jeff Spicoli from fast times at Ridgemont high.

 

Scuba WAS all like "here's what happened to me".

 

Brent knows me from other forums, and I am surprised he wouldnt defend me here. I guess that wouldnt fall into the Heritage can do no wrong mantra.

 

BTW...I found this thread while researching another Heritage that is for sale. Somewhat surprising to all of a sudden see yourself bashed. Think before you type.

 

Scuba-without reading further down, I will come to your defense as bad crap can happen to anybody. Its how the manufacturer handles the bad crap that dictates how much respect they deserve. I did not read the post on TGP, nor do I have time to. I barely have time to read the posts on this forum, just trying to make a living. While I do not know the respondent personally, I can say I have never known him to be disrespectful to anyone, so perhaps he just took what you said out of context. At any rate, most folks here are good people and very approachable and I hope this doesn't deter you from coming back. The people on this forum definitely exercise their right to free speech, and I don't think they mean any harm when doing so. One thing you did nail on the head; they are dedicated Heritage buffs and will defend their choice of instrument to the end.

[Guest HRB853370]

To many damn guitar players. Not enough drummers.

 

Tully, maybe me and No Name Band should take over this forum!

 

LOL

[rjsanders]

Scuba-without reading further down, I will come to your defense as bad crap can happen to anybody. Its how the manufacturer handles the bad crap that dictates how much respect they deserve. I did not read the post on TGP, nor do I have time to. I barely have time to read the posts on this forum, just trying to make a living. While I do not know the respondent personally, I can say I have never known him to be disrespectful to anyone, so perhaps he just took what you said out of context. At any rate, most folks here are good people and very approachable and I hope this doesn't deter you from coming back. The people on this forum definitely exercise their right to free speech, and I don't think they mean any harm when doing so. One thing you did nail on the head; they are dedicated Heritage buffs and will defend their choice of instrument to the end.

 

 

yeahman

[Halowords]

Seeing as you would find it so easy to go back and find my posts that are "angry" ( I cant remember the last time I was angry about anything), and dismissive (In order to be dismissive, I would need someone to actually approach me), I look forward to your assessment.

 

Or, you could just stop trying to be high and mighty, and admit, you may be wrong about me. You won't find any posturing in my posts. I don't care about Gibson. Hell, I own over 40 Custom Shop Charvels, but if they were dsimissive (there's that word) to me regarding an issue, i'd rip them the same way.

 

I DO care about companies that are dismissive when they have $2k of your money for a 2 day old guitar that blows. If you are better then me, and when asked your opinion , you would be all freaking rosy about it, you're a better man than I.

 

You do come across rather buttsore about Heritage. No, you aren't an 18-year old with a bong. However, you are being pretty apparent in your sour disposition over Heritage. You are more sophisticated than a stoner (well, an 18 year old lackey variety, I have known some pretty sophisticated and well-educated stoners).

 

As for your problematic Heritages, JohnCoach acknowledged them and sympathized with your experiences and how they'd color your perception.

 

As for your aggressive posts, your posts read as if you have a grudge against the company. You have:

 

* Claimed that choosing between Gibson and Heritage is "a no brainer." implying it's a stupid choice to go with a Heritage. But still, not aggressive very dismissive.

 

* Claimed "selling a Heritage is NEVER a break even event. Thats IF you can sell it." This seems hardly accurate.

 

* Claimed their "slogan" was, more or less, that they were using old Gibson employees.

 

* Claimed they "shut down a few years back because it was being run like crap" and making an allusions to Enron (granted not about Heritage, however the comparison was less than favorable).

 

Look at your overall tone and the language you use. You seem like a bright enough guy, you can maybe see where people thought this was bashing? It's the same subtle sort of language used in propaganda and legal or political proceedings. Whether you meant it that way or not, your tone and choice of words seems calculated or at least biased to show a negative cast on the company. Given your experience, that's somewhat understandable, however at some point you should give Heritage a chance to redeem itself or just drop it and go to Hamer or Charvel (or whomever) for a guitar.

 

As for the virtual high-fives, sure, I can see why that might annoy you. I would argue that does seem to be the nature of the Internet, plus I think it was all in fun. Looking at your posts, you did seem to be won over by Brent's pictures. Granted it wasn't aimed at me, but that's at least partly how I took this thread.

 

Anyway, hopefully we can all get beyond this. If you're going to stay all buttsore over it I doubt you're going to have much fun. I'd say we're probably ready to move beyond this if you are. So hopefully you can find a nice Heritage if that's what you're looking for.

[Guest HRB853370]

We have all read your posts regarding Heritage as a company, which means their people, as well as their products. We ALL found your posts to be childish and insulting. Yet, you don't see them at all as bashing. I wonder why that is? In my earlier post, I attempted to try to let calmer heads prevail, even complimenting you on your ability to receive some of these posts as being in good humor. Your attitude betrays your personality! John Covach gave you a mildly and diplomatically worded explanation as to why some here found your comments to be objectionable. Then you come back and trash one of our HOC brothers? I don't know who you are . . . but it's clear that you think you're someone or something special. Get over yourself man!! "I've got over 100 guitars" I've got over 40 Charvels" Big fucking deal!!! No one care about your guitars . . . and no one here is going to trash them or the company who made them. "I'm no bong carrying teenager" Really?? Well you're sure as hell acting like one. Regarding your comment about those here on HOC who were, as you put it, "high fiving each other over some dorky online keyboard fight" I agree with your sentiment. It was inappropriate. And, it's probably what put you in such an aggressive and hostile frame of mind. But, you need to reassess the "dorky" comments that precipitated the discourse. You don't come into our house and pick a fight with any of us . . . least of all one of the nicest and easiest going members. You need to get your head out of your ass . . . determine whether or not you care to adjust your attitude and remain a part of this forum . . . or you can go some where else and tell them about all of your 100 guitars. We don't need this shit here man.

 

By the way, has that other guy from the MLP forum that redid his headstock ever come back here again? Or did we run him off for good?

[Patrick]

By the way, has that other guy from the MLP forum that redid his headstock ever come back here again? Or did we run him off for good?

 

That was red...something wasn't it? redfish or redneck . . . . no I haven't seen him back here. The guy who did the head stock reshape wasn't all that bad a guy, in fact, he was a pretty good guy. That other "red..." gut guy had issues man. Haven't seen him and I don't miss him either.

[Halowords]

ExNihilo was the '59 headstock guy. I thought he stuck around. He seemed like a pretty decent guy. According to his profile he was here over the weekend.

[brentrocks]

Scubba is an alright guy...he just had a bad experience and it has left a bad taste in his mouth....if the neck on my 137 DLX developed a twist after only 6 months, i might be a little unhappy too.

[602a]

Scubba is an alright guy...he just had a bad experience and it has left a bad taste in his mouth....if the neck on my 137 DLX developed a twist after only 6 months, i might be a little unhappy too.

Dang I miss all the good crap while at the hunting camp! And no I'm not gonna stir the Pot. Me and Damion had good Luck too.

[scuba200ft]

Hey, where did that post from that peacock guy go? I was writing some of the words down for future use, maybe for a cop next time I get a speeding ticket....

 

You know, that TGP thread is now on its 6th or 7th page, and I havent even posted on their since page 2 or 3. Can we start a new thread about someone else and i'll pile on? Screw those guys!

[JohnCovach]

Can't we all just get along like these guys?

 

 

 

[Patrick]

Can't we all just get along like these guys?

 

 

 

 

DAMN!!! That a real pretty ES175! You got my nose wide open. I assume that's for the Yes tribute material? The triple pup switch master is cool too. Can we discuss the bridge on the 175?? Naahh . . . . just messin' with ya. OK . . . so I'm really not just messin' with ya. I'm kinda thinking nickel ABR1 . . . or ebony. But, hey . . . it ain't my guitar (regrettably)

[Halowords]

Can we start a new thread about someone else and i'll pile on? Screw those guys!

 

Yeah, screw those as-of-yet-unnamed guys!!!! Who's got a pitchfork?!!!

 

Seriously though, I'd wager we're all set to move on. You're welcome to stay on and chat Heritage or show off some Charvel pics or something as long as you're here and all.

[JohnCovach]

DAMN!!! That a real pretty ES175! You got my nose wide open. I assume that's for the Yes tribute material? The triple pup switch master is cool too. Can we discuss the bridge on the 175?? Naahh . . . . just messin' with ya. OK . . . so I'm really not just messin' with ya. I'm kinda thinking nickel ABR1 . . . or ebony. But, hey . . . it ain't my guitar (regrettably)

 

I'm happy with the bridge on the 175. I did replace the bridges on the 575 and 576 with tune-o-matics though. The 575 got an ebony bridge base, and the 576 got a Schaller fine-tune tailpiece. The 575 has Gibson 57 pups, and the 576 has a Seth at the bridge and a Duncan jazz at the neck. Both the Gibson guitars are stock; the 175 is the Steve Howe model.

[scuba200ft]

Ok, why doesnt someone explain to me why this guitar would sit out there all day at $1300 shipped.....It can't be because its lackng flames...We've all got piles of flamey guitars. This one has THAT old look.

 

Why would it take so long to sell at that price?

 

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=812388