koula901 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 At the risk of sounding defensive, I don't think anyone here is saying the clips sound bad, in fact, they sound excellent. I happen to like that warm, fat, tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I admire those like John, who have the drive, and the ambition to embrace that stuff. I just don't have it, thats all. Not being judgemental at all about it. I just have to focus on other things right now. His experiment had a purpose and a result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunote Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I view the AXE-FX as I view my BOSS ME-25. The Fractal product is a lot more sophisticated. But for less than the cost some folks spend on one pedal, they can have an ME unit that also produces some very high quality amp and effect simulations that can be mixed together in various combinations. To Koula's concern, it's pretty easy to use, or just start playing around with the 60 patches that come with it. The amp sims include Fender Twin, Fender Tweed/Bassman, VOX AXxx, Mesa Boogie, Marshall Vintage, Marshall Modern, Peavy 5150 lead channel; Mesa Boogie Dual REctifier; an Ultra-metal. There's Chorus, phaser, flanger, rotary speaker , Uni-vibe, tremolo, Gramonist, and octave effects, as well as dela from 1-6000ms, or us tap to set. It has reverb, wah, and other pedal effects. one switch allows solo boost and more. It comes with Sonar Software that you can record directly to straight from the Multi-effect. I front-ended my Blues Junior with one and really enjoyed the extra sounds I could get. In some cases songs I learned really needed some of those effects to sound right. Mine cost $175 new with a $20 off coupon at GC. I forgot to add that the unit includs overdrive/distortion pedal simulations that include the BOSS OD1, Ibanez TS-808, and other custom optons for blues overdrive, heavy distortion, metal, of fuzz. There's a boost function, a built in tuner. A phrase loop recorder for creating ad hoc backing tracks, a headphone jack if you want to play quietly. Probably a great starting point for someone who thinks they might want something as sophisticated as the AXE FX but would first like to get used to a modeler first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koula901 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hey Blunote, You make some great points. I once had a GT 10, and yes indeed, it was pretty easy to learn. I think a lot of manufacturers would do themselves a great service to simplify their technology quite a bit and make absolutely sure they haven't skipped any steps, when writing their manuals. That way, they'd sell a lot more product, and the consumer would be happier. I agree with the inference you seem to be making about price, i.e., it would be a lot cheaper for someone to have an ME 25, or a Boss GT 10, than to spend all that $ on pedals, have to make up a pedal board, that ends up, usually, on the heavy side (for me, at least). I found that the sounds in the GT10 were quite pleasing. But I was new to the world of gear, and at the time I started playing again, people were saying that the 'real' pedals were superior in sound, and so, I got sucked into that. What really convinced me to go the pedal route was a comment like this: "There's something about the interaction between my pedal and the amp". From that I assumed that there really was something about the interaction - : ) but I never really learned what that was! Perhaps he mean that one could re-order the pedals on the board and they would act upon each other differently. Since I'm more conservative than that, I'm not inclined to re-order them. Besides, one can program a GT 10 to reorder effects, if one wants. Anyway, after having gone through the whole pedal board thing, I sometimes think I might have been better of to have stayed with the GT 10 - as it's simple, and lighter, and I'd be more inclined to take it with me to band rehearsals. I guess, as a beginner guitarist, I wanted to experience the whole pedal thing. After all is said and done, Tully made an excellent point: we buy these great guitars, and wonderful amps, but put the guitar through a digital pedal! Found that a wonderful comment, and thought provoking. Am not against technology, just want it to be simple and not so time consuming. Apologies to Kuz if you feel this is hijacking your thread. This just seems to be a related tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hey Blunote, You make some great points. I once had a GT 10, and yes indeed, it was pretty easy to learn. I think a lot of manufacturers would do themselves a great service to simplify their technology quite a bit and make absolutely sure they haven't skipped any steps, when writing their manuals. That way, they'd sell a lot more product, and the consumer would be happier. I agree with the inference you seem to be making about price, i.e., it would be a lot cheaper for someone to have an ME 25, or a Boss GT 10, than to spend all that $ on pedals, have to make up a pedal board, that ends up, usually, on the heavy side (for me, at least). I found that the sounds in the GT10 were quite pleasing. But I was new to the world of gear, and at the time I started playing again, people were saying that the 'real' pedals were superior in sound, and so, I got sucked into that. What really convinced me to go the pedal route was a comment like this: "There's something about the interaction between my pedal and the amp". From that I assumed that there really was something about the interaction - : ) but I never really learned what that was! Perhaps he mean that one could re-order the pedals on the board and they would act upon each other differently. Since I'm more conservative than that, I'm not inclined to re-order them. Besides, one can program a GT 10 to reorder effects, if one wants. Anyway, after having gone through the whole pedal board thing, I sometimes think I might have been better of to have stayed with the GT 10 - as it's simple, and lighter, and I'd be more inclined to take it with me to band rehearsals. I guess, as a beginner guitarist, I wanted to experience the whole pedal thing. After all is said and done, Tully made an excellent point: we buy these great guitars, and wonderful amps, but put the guitar through a digital pedal! Found that a wonderful comment, and thought provoking. Am not against technology, just want it to be simple and not so time consuming. Apologies to Kuz if you feel this is hijacking your thread. This just seems to be a related tangent. I bought a VIZIO tv for Christmas, and the owners manual was the best "non-technical" manual I have ever seen in my life! It looked like it was actually written by somebody who understands that people like the KISS concept. I also like the fact that it is an American company, even though the unit was made in China. Sorry to hijack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaruth Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Wait, so Kuz has a "virtual" Mesa Mark V in his Axe-Fx? I have a real Mark V (in hardwood maple CORKSNIFFER ALERT) and I don't see how you can model something that has so many possibilities. Or is he only modeling one sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunote Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hey Blunote, ......I agree with the inference you seem to be making about price, i.e., it would be a lot cheaper for someone to have an ME 25, or a Boss GT 10, than to spend all that $ on pedals, have to make up a pedal board, that ends up, usually, on the heavy side (for me, at least). I found that the sounds in the GT10 were quite pleasing. But I was new to the world of gear, and at the time I started playing again, people were saying that the 'real' pedals were superior in sound, and so, I got sucked into that. What really convinced me to go the pedal route was a comment like this: "There's something about the interaction between my pedal and the amp". From that I assumed that there really was something about the interaction - : ) but I never really learned what that was! Perhaps he mean that one could re-order the pedals on the board and they would act upon each other differently. Since I'm more conservative than that, I'm not inclined to re-order them. Besides, one can program a GT 10 to reorder effects, if one wants. The ME 25 uses the same electronic as the GT 10 for the amp simulations and effects it contains. Like you, I was told that the digitally modeled effects produced a lower grade sound to the pedals. So, I recently bought a high end pedal to use in front of my KBP810 RD (Fender DR). That pedal was an 'improved' clone of the TS-808 so I did a direct A-B comparison against the TS-808 effect in my ME 25. Darned if I could tell much difference or if there was, that one was somehow better than the other. I think that's the point the OP is making with the AXE-FX recordings. I'm just elaborating on that to say that there are less expensive starting points for folks like you and me, that do much the same and which should be regarded with a bit more respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koula901 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Blunote - totally agreed, and it was exciting to read your post because you paired it up with a Blues Jr - which I just purchased and will be picking up tomorrow night. Maybe someday I'll decide to put an ME in front of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koula901 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 @ Jack Baruth Perhaps the sounds are so good because they're sampled? (don't know if that's the same as 'modeling'). I would imagine that Axe Fx sampled the sound of a Mark V, then provide tools to modify the sounds - but Kuz is the ultimate authority on that - perhaps he'll chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurph1 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I am sorry and I know some of you may be mad. The clips I made with the "Tweed Deluxe", BOTH the 150s and the Kirn Tele WERE DONE ON THE AXE-FX!!!! Technically, I didn't really lie!!!! 1) I did use "my" Tweed Deluxe (modeled off the Axe-Fx) 2) I did run the modeled "Tweed" through a Celestion Blue Bell Alnico VIRTUAL IR Cabinet 3) This was "mic'd" with a VIRTUAL Sure SM57 1" off the cap edge If you want to think of it as a Pyschological Experiment of Tone, well then you might not get as mad. I know some will respond, "Well, I always knew it sounded like a "modeled" Tweed, not like the real thing". Well, no one actually said that BEFORE my confession. Some of the poeple that responded I feel know tone well and were either just being nice OR REALLY THOUGHT IT SOUNDED LIKE A REAL TWEED DELUXE. FWIW, I used to own the pictured Tweed Deluxe in the thread, but sold it to get back my Blonde Golden Eagle. I feel the Axe-Fx sounds VERY similiar, if not the same as how the real one did. PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR RECRUITING YOU IN PART OF MY EXPERIMENT. NO KITTENS WERE HARMED IN MAKING THESE CLIPS!!!! http://soundcloud.co...e-150-gt-lollar http://soundcloud.co...eluxe-150-peter http://soundcloud.co...-150-gt-sle-101 http://soundcloud.co...eluxe-kirn-tele http://soundcloud.co...xe-cranked-kirn LOL!! I really don't care if they are "Modeled" or not..they Sounded GREAT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfan Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I am appalled, flabergasted and out raged. This is an abomination. I have been deceived. I hope I can get a refund for the boutique ass sniffer Tweed I just ordered. Seriously though, is it possible to compare tone with any kind of accuracy through a pc's speakers? And how hard is it to set the bias for the axe? I need to axe my wife if can buy one. If I am off the forum for any amount of time call the authorities, she has done me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunote Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 @ Jack Baruth Perhaps the sounds are so good because they're sampled? (don't know if that's the same as 'modeling'). I would imagine that Axe Fx sampled the sound of a Mark V, then provide tools to modify the sounds - but Kuz is the ultimate authority on that - perhaps he'll chime in. Here's how BOSS describes COSM: Variable Guitar Modeling, or VGM, is the main component of COSM when it comes to guitars and basses. It can be broken down into three separate elements: Electronic modeling —With this process, BOSS and Roland engineers analyze and simulate the actual electronic circuitry and how it interacts in a device such as a vintage guitar amp or a classic stompbox. This includes the detailed behavioral characteristics of vacuum tubes, transistors, and all other electronic components. Magnetic modeling —Electromagnetic components are a huge part of the sound of electric guitars and amps; this VGM process simulates the characteristics of guitar pickups, amp transformers, speakers, and more. Physical modeling —This process is a central part of COSM instrument modeling. It simulates the characteristics of the materials used to construct an instrument, including the type of wood, the metal parts, and even the finish. Physical modeling is also used to analyze the construction materials used in different guitar speaker cabinets. Measuring sound in an anechoic chamber. Harmonic Restructure Modeling (HRM) is another component found in some COSM guitar products. The vibration of a guitar string generates many harmonics, and these harmonics define the actual sound character of guitar sounds as we recognize them. With HRM, BOSS and Roland engineers manipulate these harmonics and change them to create very un-guitar-like tones, while still retaining feel and playability of the guitar. In a Roland V-Guitar System, for example, HRM applies the harmonic characteristics of organs, reed instruments, and synths directly to your actual guitar. When all the VRM and/or HRM elements are brought together, the result is a realistic composite of the individual components of the object whose sound is being modeled I imagine Fractile has a similar method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrymclark Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Sounds great. Modelled or no, great tone. I find the modelling thing very fascinating. The Axe-Fx is without a doubt the reigning king of this area. Too bad they are so frickin expensive... of course... the the Smokey amp is too much for me right now... but that is beside the point! haha. I already miss my Starlite and I never even got to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Very cool!. I downloaded the owners manual and there's a lot to study. In the interest of time, please answer me this: What do AXE-FX users normally output to? A PA and monitors Directly to monitors A home stereo system? Their favorite amp (tube or solid state and does it matter?) 1) Well, for me, my axe goes out of a pair of quality powered studio monitors (most use this method if they use the Axe-Fx to record) 2) For stage use, many will just go straight through the PA and PA monitors 3) For others for live use, they will use a Flat-response solid State amp (atomic wedge) so that you are only amplifying the sound coming out of the Axe-Fx. You don't want any tube distion from a tube amp because you only want to magnify the sound coming from the Axe-Fx, you don't want to color the Axe-Fx signal in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Wait, so Kuz has a "virtual" Mesa Mark V in his Axe-Fx? I have a real Mark V (in hardwood maple CORKSNIFFER ALERT) and I don't see how you can model something that has so many possibilities. Or is he only modeling one sound? Yes, the Mark IV is a modeled amp in the Axe-Fx. The Axe-Fx gives you over 70 modeled amps from vintage to modern high gain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 I am appalled, flabergasted and out raged. This is an abomination. I have been deceived. I hope I can get a refund for the boutique ass sniffer Tweed I just ordered. Seriously though, is it possible to compare tone with any kind of accuracy through a pc's speakers? And how hard is it to set the bias for the axe? I need to axe my wife if can buy one. If I am off the forum for any amount of time call the authorities, she has done me in. Quite easy. In the amp section you CAN adjust the bias value of an amp!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 @ Jack Baruth Perhaps the sounds are so good because they're sampled? (don't know if that's the same as 'modeling'). I would imagine that Axe Fx sampled the sound of a Mark V, then provide tools to modify the sounds - but Kuz is the ultimate authority on that - perhaps he'll chime in. I don't know the exact process, but I do know they take values of THE REAL AMPS. ALL the amps of the Axe-Fx have been physically at Fractile Audio to take the values of to make the modeled version of that amp. I know they even go so far to check the bright capcitors values and all the other amp geek stuff!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Apologies to Kuz if you feel this is hijacking your thread. This just seems to be a related tangent. Katy, for the record, I never took offense to anything you said. Bottom line is..... I ONLY USE THE AXE-FX TO RECORD, live I use my tube amps and pedals. The real amps/pedals are probably easier to transport than a rack and amp for the axe-fx. But if I was in a covers band, I would go with the Axe-Fx because you can't dial in that many different sounds from one amp (or at least you can get much better results with the Axe-Fx. It is hard to make a Deluxe Reverb sound like a Marshall for one song, and then like a Mesa Triple Rectifier, and then a Peavy 5150 and then a Bassman, ect.... I don't care what pedals you use). I take no offense to what anyone said. The Axe-Fx is not for everyone. I will say though, if you can work a computer, smart-phone, or digital camera.... you can work an Axe-Fx. I have never been on Facebook, My Space, or Twitter, but can work an Axe-Fx just fine. Is there a learning curve? Absolutely, but there are presets, a forum, and Preset Exchange Forum, where if you just ask they will give you the answer or the preset you want. But I caution you..... the Axe-Fx is addicting!!!! I am going to post some John Scofield tones here in a week or two!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 OK, my honest opinion. Tracks sound great, but, I have learned to not completely trust what I hear over this PC (or any other I guess). I'm guessing that it would be tough to tell the difference between the AXE FX and the tweed in person if the AXE Fx was run through a like voiced speaker, but I couldn't truly make a comparison with this setup, as everything over my laptop speakers has a similiar color. When I run my laptop through our PA, everything sounds better and fuller, but still not like being in person, sort of Memorex, if you remember those commercials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrymclark Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Here is my thing... and this applies to classic/legendary amps as well as modelers: does it sound good? If the answer is yes... then who cares how it got made or what it does or doesn't sound like? I really REALLY think WAY too much is made of the tube/ss/digital thing. Buy with your ears. You will be happy. And, like me, when people what turn their nose up at your amp... enjoy making them look like fools when you bury their $3000 amp with tonal goodness as they spend as much time shopping for amps as you have tweaking yours. That's true for any amp. There are those that buy the newest and greatest modeller deal out and don't really learn the gear they have. It is sold off to soon or shelved for the new thing. Same with tube amps and solid states. Get an amp that has some level of initial appeal... and spend years if need be tweaking and loving that amp. It will give the love back but you can't rush it. To back up Kuz, there is a GREAT forum. Very informative and Fractal is active on there. The customer support is awesome. To be honest, the customer support is so good that it really makes that price tag not seem so bad. You will get immediate help. If was in the market and wasn't in the fix I am in, I can see owning one without a flinch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genericmusic Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 To each his/her own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 One final part of the puzzle..... The Axe-Fx is modeled as a MIC'D VIRTUAL CABINET. SO it won't sound exactly the same as a real amp, unless the real amp is MIC'D and sent through the PA or Mic'd and recorded USING THE SAME REAL MIC. There are like 12 mics to choose from, but the point is my "mic'd Tweed" would sound like a real Tweed that was mic'd using the same real mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So what kind of amp would be used with an AXE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 So what kind of amp would be used with an AXE? A solid state Flat Response Power amp: there are several different brands and models. The most popular one is "The Atomic Wedge", but I haven't played my Axe-Fx through anything but my Focal Studio Monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalismanRich Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think the key here is that the Axe-FX's real strength is in recording. No spending an hour to find the sweet spot for the mic, isolating the cabinet and setting all the levels only to find out that the tone isn't right through the monitors even if it sounds killer in the room. What comes out of the Axe-FX goes direct to the tape (or hard drive). Monitor everything on your studio monitors (full range) and when you find the sound you are after, it will be there whenever you need it. You also don't have to drive the neighbors crazy with 100+dB guitar amps cranked to get "the tone". Late at night with a pair of headphones and a guitar, laying down a track and nobody knows you're there. This is GREAT for those overdubs. Once you tear down a mic/amp setup, its really tough to find exactly that setup. It might be an inch off, but on a high resolution system, the difference can pop out. With the Axe-FX, you can come back a month later, punch up the patch plug in the guitar and be right back where you started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.