lefty blues: caution: heartbreaking damage photos

[donnie]

This really pisses me off.

 

Regardless of insurance, the Uniform Commercial Code requires that anyone receiving a bailment is required to take a reasonable level of care to protect it; especially if it's a bailment for hire. I'm sure there's a lawyer or two among us who are more knowledgeable than I. Even so, I have studied business law, and some of those lessons informed me that even when companies try to deny that basic UCC requirement in their Ts & Cs, courts still rule for plaintiffs based on public policy arguments. Bottom line is: When something is delvered into your posessession, you are obliged to take a reasonable level of care to protect it. That expectation of reasonable care is greater when the bailee is specifically paid to safeguard, or provide services related to it.

 

Something happened to this instrument that was significant enough to push the toggle switch through the top of the guitar. In my vew, that makes it rather difficult, even preposterous for UPS to claim they have taken reasonable care of it.

 

In my view, they ought to repair it whether you bought additional insurance or not. It seems to me that If they're unwilling to take responsibility for the safe conveyance of goods trusted to them, they should either get out of the business or limit themselves to the transport of hay bales.

 

Personally, I'd pay the $20 or whatever it costs to make my case in small claimes court. Win or lose, at least I'd have a forum to make my case and get a fair settlement.

 

 

Respectfully, while it certainly costs little or nothing to try, it's almost guaranteed to be a 100% waste of time. More so because of no insurance, but it really wouldn't have mattered much (believe it or not) if it had been insured. UPS has a Department of Denial (although they probably call it something less blatant) whose sole job it is to deny insurance claims. It's probably the most profitable department in the company. Read their terms of service. If it comes down to it, did you use a brand-new previously unused box? Sorry, SOL!

 

Their conveyors at each hub are 6+ feet off of a concrete floor. The only, and I mean only way to pack a guitar and guarantee it's survival is to assume that a.) it will fall off this conveyor, and b.) some moron will toss it to another moron who will fail to catch it. "Fragile" stickers? That only irritates them more, don't even try.

 

The only way to insure survival is to pack as if it's a certainty that one or both of the above will indeed occur. Anything less courts disaster. As others have pointed out, it's simply the immutable law of inertia. Or, remember the immortal words of Percy Sledge "it's not the fall at all, but it's the sudden stop". Here's what I do: I triple box the thing. Yes, triple. First as others have said you must immobilize the neck inside the hard case from both top and bottom. Wadded newspaper works really well for this. When you shut the case there should be slight pressure needed to close it; you then know that the newspaper has the neck properly suspended. The hard case then goes into box #1, usually the original factory shipping box. That box goes into box #2, normally a larger regular guitar shipping box. The key is that there is a cushioning layer between the two boxes to help absorb any shock from the aforementioned dropping. Layered bubble wrap is good as is again, wadded newspaper, but in no case should you ever even think about styrofoam peanuts. They are as worthless as teats on a boar hog. Then, and only then, the second box goes into a NEW double-walled heavy duty keyboard box (they are available, you just have to look a little), again with the requisite layer of shock absorbent material of your choice between the boxes. You're almost done now, but wait-secure the outer box with strapping tape, not shipping tape. It's the kind with the little ribs for strength. Use about a whole roll. I then insure the thing for way more than it's worth-I'll insure a thousand dollar guitar for 5 grand. Not that I hope to collect, but I cling to the urban myth that high stated value packages get better treatment.

 

And, if you happen to be a be a believer,this would be a good time to pray a little!

 

Oh, by the way, did I mention that you take pictures along every step of the way? Yep, you may need them and it takes little effort.

 

I shipped such a packaged guitar back to Wolfe last year and I'll never forget Graham teasing me about it. But it got there just fine!

 

If you do it this way the only way for them to bust it would be maybe to have it show up with fork lift tracks on it. Tell the truth, I'm the kind of guy that enjoys a good fight and I hope they do bust one of mine. I feel secure that I'd win with all this.

 

Now I know many of you (including myself) ship and receive plenty of guitars without going through all this hoopla. That's fine. But you've been lucky and your time is coming. This may be over the top, but I can send a guitar out and forget about it-and I hate having to worry.

[Guest HRB853370]

 

 

Respectfully, while it certainly costs little or nothing to try, it's almost guaranteed to be a 100% waste of time. More so because of no insurance, but it really wouldn't have mattered much (believe it or not) if it had been insured. UPS has a Department of Denial (although they probably call it something less blatant) whose sole job it is to deny insurance claims. It's probably the most profitable department in the company. Read their terms of service. If it comes down to it, did you use a brand-new previously unused box? Sorry, SOL!

 

Their conveyors at each hub are 6+ feet off of a concrete floor. The only, and I mean only way to pack a guitar and guarantee it's survival is to assume that a.) it will fall off this conveyor, and b.) some moron will toss it to another moron who will fail to catch it. "Fragile" stickers? That only irritates them more, don't even try.

 

The only way to insure survival is to pack as if it's a certainty that one or both of the above will indeed occur. Anything less courts disaster. As others have pointed out, it's simply the immutable law of inertia. Or, remember the immortal words of Percy Sledge "it's not the fall at all, but it's the sudden stop". Here's what I do: I triple box the thing. Yes, triple. First as others have said you must immobilize the neck inside the hard case from both top and bottom. Wadded newspaper works really well for this. When you shut the case there should be slight pressure needed to close it; you then know that the newspaper has the neck properly suspended. The hard case then goes into box #1, usually the original factory shipping box. That box goes into box #2, normally a larger regular guitar shipping box. The key is that there is a cushioning layer between the two boxes to help absorb any shock from the aforementioned dropping. Layered bubble wrap is good as is again, wadded newspaper, but in no case should you ever even think about styrofoam peanuts. They are as worthless as teats on a boar hog. Then, and only then, the second box goes into a NEW double-walled heavy duty keyboard box (they are available, you just have to look a little), again with the requisite layer of shock absorbent material of your choice between the boxes. You're almost done now, but wait-secure the outer box with strapping tape, not shipping tape. It's the kind with the little ribs for strength. Use about a whole roll. I then insure the thing for way more than it's worth-I'll insure a thousand dollar guitar for 5 grand. Not that I hope to collect, but I cling to the urban myth that high stated value packages get better treatment.

 

And, if you happen to be a be a believer,this would be a good time to pray a little!

 

Oh, by the way, did I mention that you take pictures along every step of the way? Yep, you may need them and it takes little effort.

 

I shipped such a packaged guitar back to Wolfe last year and I'll never forget Graham teasing me about it. But it got there just fine!

 

If you do it this way the only way for them to bust it would be maybe to have it show up with fork lift tracks on it. Tell the truth, I'm the kind of guy that enjoys a good fight and I hope they do bust one of mine. I feel secure that I'd win with all this.

 

Now I know many of you (including myself) ship and receive plenty of guitars without going through all this hoopla. That's fine. But you've been lucky and your time is coming. This may be over the top, but I can send a guitar out and forget about it-and I hate having to worry.

 

The above is good, although the law of diminishing returns may apply. Triple boxing a guitar may provide added insurance against the hardshell case being pierced but it will not protect it any more if it sustains a sudden trauma. The hardshell case is the first line of defense and securing the peghead so it does not have a chance to move either laterally or up and down is the key. I have had dozens of guitars shipped to me in boxes, used boxes, that should have been taken to the dump, but used again, but the shipper secured the guitar very well in the hard shell case. Secure the peghead, bubble wrap the case, put plenty of padding on both ends, use a box with integrity, not one that has seen a dozen shipments. Do that and always insure, and of course, pray for the best outcome.

[donnie]

 

The above is good, although the law of diminishing returns may apply. Triple boxing a guitar may provide added insurance against the hardshell case being pierced but it will not protect it any more if it sustains a sudden trauma. The hardshell case is the first line of defense and securing the peghead so it does not have a chance to move either laterally or up and down is the key. I have had dozens of guitars shipped to me in boxes, used boxes, that should have been taken to the dump, but used again, but the shipper secured the guitar very well in the hard shell case. Secure the peghead, bubble wrap the case, put plenty of padding on both ends, use a box with integrity, not one that has seen a dozen shipments. Do that and always insure, and of course, pray for the best outcome.

 

 

Slammer, in my humble opinion the triple boxing does indeed provide extra protection against inertia. That's the whole point for me. I've never worried too much about pierce-through. But each successive boxing layer with the bubble warp in between provides one more layer of cushioning to combat the effects of inertia. I hope that all that is additive, and that's the whole point for me.

 

I don't so much disagree about diminishing returns. Do about 10 this way and with the extra packing, insuring and shipping costs you could have eaten one nice guitar. I just hate the thought of doing that.

[MartyGrass]

When my Eagle was destroyed by FedEx, I had to get appraisals for the costs of repair. I took it to Heritage. Several sad looking men looked at the ruins.

 

Vince told me that he has never collected from UPS or FedEx on a broken instrument. The luthier who did the second quote said about 20 years ago UPS did pay on a claim for a broken fretboard. But UPS admitted one of thier trucks ran it over. Otherwise he has never had a successful claim.

 

By luck, I had enough documentation for a claim. There were pictures on the Internet showing I was selling the guitar. I took time stamped photos of the guitar as I packaged it. When the guitar arrived broken, the buyer immediately took pictures and called FedEx. Their rep came out and took more pictures.

 

The FedEx agent I worked with explained that there is widespread fraud. People package broken items, ship them to a co-conspirator, and claim FedEx broke it. She said obviously this was not the case with me. Further, she was a guitarist and chatted about Heritage.

 

I now photograph guitars as I package them, including the box with label. I also package them with headstock protection.

 

BTW, the toggle switch being in the body must be from pressure on top of the case. The switch has little mass and therefore little momentum in movement. But downward pressure can pop the switch into the body if the nut isn't tight. With more pressure it can push the nut through. This is why many people take the toggle switch caps off during shipping.

[Gitfiddler]

How to make sure your package arrives at its destinatin safely and undamaged?

 

Call NASA. Here's the ultimate bubble wrap, airbag, double-box theory applied to a multi-billion dollar program.

 

[koula901]

: ) there ya go!

[Blunote]

Respectfully, ......

 

Donnie, the point I'm trying to make is that UPS or Fed-ex have responsibilities to take reasonable care of goods entrusted to them for delivery -regardless of their Ts&Cs. Of course, we have are are responsibilty to properly pack the goods for shipment. That doesn't mean we're responsible for making the package destruction-proof. It seems to me, UPS' and other delivery companies have trained the public into thinking that we as customers are to blame for their negligence.

 

I reject that "blame the victim" mentality.

 

It all comes down to what is considered reasonable care in the mind of a judge if UPS will not consider claims objectively. Win or lose, were it me, I'd feel better about the whole matter knowing it was decided in a fair forum.

[donnie]

 

Donnie, the point I'm trying to make is that UPS or Fed-ex have responsibilities to take reasonable care of goods entrusted to them for delivery -regardless of their Ts&Cs. Of course, we have are are responsibilty to properly pack the goods for shipment. That doesn't mean we're responsible for making the package destruction-proof. It seems to me, UPS' and other delivery companies have trained the public into thinking that we as customers are to blame for their negligence.

 

I reject that "blame the victim" mentality.

 

It all comes down to what is considered reasonable care in the mind of a judge if UPS will not consider claims objectively. Win or lose, were it me, I'd feel better about the whole matter knowing it was decided in a fair forum.

 

 

Blunote I'm totally with you on this , in theory at least. You are 100% correct.

 

But if you'll allow me the liberty, I'm guessing that you have never filed a damage claim against UPS on a guitar. The policy is that the shipper is guilty until proven innocent, which they make very, vert difficult to do. They will say that they did exercise reasonable care, and short of tire tracks over the box the shipper is powerless to prove otherwise. The "brand new and unused box" is almost always their first knockout punch. How many people do that? Yet it's right there in their terms of service.

 

Once in a blue moon you can prevail against them but it's rare. they are complete pros at structuring the system to wear you down. That's why I find it easier to overpack than try to prove them wrong.

[MartyGrass]

It's a tough situation.

 

We know that some packages are abused, and that's wrong. On the other hand we know that there are people who will ship their broken guitars and claim UPS did it.

 

One of our HOC brothers is driving over four hours today to pick up a guitar from me. I offered to pay for shipping, but he doesn't want to risk damage. He has a point.

[cod65]

Well I've had time to sleep on it and come to a conclusion: Life is too short to dwell on this. I really dont think it's worth my time to think about it anymore. I odn't think I should even file a claim- I skimped on insurance at the last moment because I was cheap and real stressed about money, and I didnt pack behind the peghead. I have to own up and move forward. The good news is that my baby will come home and I will nurse her back and just keep her forever. I am sure that it will come back to life sooner or later, when I have the dough, and it may be a better guitar with a battle scar.

 

'that which does not kill us makes us stronger.'

 

I'm moving forward, calling the guy and telling him to just pack it well and ship it back to me.

[MartyGrass]

 

 

The "brand new and unused box" is almost always their first knockout punch. How many people do that? Yet it's right there in their terms of service.

 

 

The UPS store will sell you one of those very boxes for $25 and charge you another $25 to pack the guitar. I did that once with a Golden Eagle and will never do it again.

 

To make matters worse I ended up using the USPS because the guitar was going to Greece. The box was too long for Greek customs. I had to unpack the guitar, cut the box down to size, then repackage.

[donnie]

Well I've had time to sleep on it and come to a conclusion: Life is too short to dwell on this. I really dont think it's worth my time to think about it anymore. I odn't think I should even file a claim- I skimped on insurance at the last moment because I was cheap and real stressed about money, and I didnt pack behind the peghead. I have to own up and move forward. The good news is that my baby will come home and I will nurse her back and just keep her forever. I am sure that it will come back to life sooner or later, when I have the dough, and it may be a better guitar with a battle scar.

 

'that which does not kill us makes us stronger.'

 

I'm moving forward, calling the guy and telling him to just pack it well and ship it back to me.

 

 

Good, clear thinking here IMO.

 

It's tough to do what you're saying, but the older I get the more likely I am just to own up to messing up (to myself anyway) and move on.

 

Nobody's perfect, and life is too short...

[FredZepp]

Take that to someone who has successfully done some headstock repairs ( or have it re-necked ) and it will be good as new.

 

Get a good recommendation for the shop to do the work and ask to see work that they've done previously.

 

 

 

 

I bought a Les Paul Special that had a headstock repair. I was talking to the guy about buying the guitar and then he send an email lowering the price, because someone had shown him where it had been repaired. He didn't know that it had and it was so invisible that I believe him.. really the most invisible repair that I've ever seen. I still have that guitar, it's no different from one without a repair.

And that's how it should be , if done right.

[yoslate]

Well I've had time to sleep on it and come to a conclusion: Life is too short to dwell on this. I really dont think it's worth my time to think about it anymore. I odn't think I should even file a claim- I skimped on insurance at the last moment because I was cheap and real stressed about money, and I didnt pack behind the peghead. I have to own up and move forward. The good news is that my baby will come home and I will nurse her back and just keep her forever. I am sure that it will come back to life sooner or later, when I have the dough, and it may be a better guitar with a battle scar.

 

'that which does not kill us makes us stronger.'

 

I'm moving forward, calling the guy and telling him to just pack it well and ship it back to me.

 

'65: Your honesty and pragmatism are really admirable! I showed Tom the pics, as soon as I got to the shop this morning. Based on the pictures, and it didn't take him long, he suggested a traditional headstock repair was pretty much out of the question. He said it was a candidate for a new neck. Tom does know his stuff, but that evaluation is based solely on the pics you posted. Best of luck!

 

Rob

[cod65]

hmm, yoslate, with that info I may just try fixing it myself, if it doesnt really matter. We'l ll see when it gets back. I've got a good friend who worked for Gary Brawer here who can give me the scoop. thanks for showing those photos !

[Hfan]

cod65, sorry to hear about this situation. Hope you get her back to playing shape and enjoy her for many years.

[Sven]

This really pisses me off.

 

Regardless of insurance, the Uniform Commercial Code requires that anyone receiving a bailment is required to take a reasonable level of care to protect it; especially if it's a bailment for hire. I'm sure there's a lawyer or two among us who are more knowledgeable than I. Even so, I have studied business law, and some of those lessons informed me that even when companies try to deny that basic UCC requirement in their Ts & Cs, courts still rule for plaintiffs based on public policy arguments. Bottom line is: When something is delvered into your posessession, you are obliged to take a reasonable level of care to protect it. That expectation of reasonable care is greater when the bailee is specifically paid to safeguard, or provide services related to it.

 

Something happened to this instrument that was significant enough to push the toggle switch through the top of the guitar. In my vew, that makes it rather difficult, even preposterous for UPS to claim they have taken reasonable care of it.

 

Exactly. Federal law requires that shipping companies are responsible for delivering freight in the same condition it was in when they accepted it for shipment.

 

Now, of course they will deny it to your face, but that law is there for a reason.

[Sven]

You need to fight them on it. There is a difference between right and wrong. Caving into corruption sends the signal that it's OK...it's not OK. The law is on your side, and a jury will be, too. However, a phone call from an attorney may be all that's required to make them uphold their responsibility.

[Teeky]

I feel your pain. I had an Eagle do this. The case design favors snapping the neck at the headstock when the case is dropped on its back. The high end of the neck is supported almost up to the headstock, and the headstock has no support, especially under it. This can cause decapitation with rapid deceleration. The headstock of Heritage's archtops are heavier than the solid bodies, and the tuning pegs add to the mass. The headstock-neck junction is the vulnerable point. To make things worse, it is customary to loosen the guitar strings before shipping. String tension actually helps prevents this kind of break but would have the opposite effect if the case was dropped on its front. What I do is pack the guitar case tightly with bubble wrap so the headstock cannot move. I would be very surprised if UPS pays you a cent for this tragedy. It's difficult enough to collect when you have insurance. There are a couple of luthiers in the Kalamazoo area who can reneck it. Both are substantially cheaper than a factory job. Still, you're looking at about $600. A headstock repair, if possible, should be a heck of a lot cheaper.

 

Sorry to hear about this. It's every guitarists nightmare. The fear of this was running through my mind on my latest aquisition.

I asked the vendor to pack bubblewrap above and below the neck to stop it moving.

I also asked him to detension the strings. I still think this a good idea. If it's dropped on its back the head will flex down but then it will spring back with almost as much energy and any tension on the strings will add to that and using the nut as a fulcrum will create a huge turning moment which is liable to snap the head off.

 

I considered transit insurance but the courier's maximum compensation was only half the guitar's value. The premium was not bad so I thought, barring a total write-off, the compensation would certainly be enough to cover luthier's repair bills.

[Guest HRB853370]

 

Exactly. Federal law requires that shipping companies are responsible for delivering freight in the same condition it was in when they accepted it for shipment.

 

Now, of course they will deny it to your face, but that law is there for a reason.

 

But their attorneys carefully craft clauses and loopholes into the contracts to keep them from having to pay.

[donnie]

 

But their attorneys carefully craft clauses and loopholes into the contracts to keep them from having to pay.

 

 

This. 100% on the money.

 

The thought that a private individual has justice available to him by hiring a 4-5 hundred dollar an hour attorney qualified to bring suit in Federal court is ludicrous. What's right, wrong, and should or shouldn't be is irrelevant. They got us guys, and they will win almost every time. The only way to beat them at their own game is to pack the thing with the expectation it can survive a nuclear holocaust.

 

Of course if one is independently wealthy and just wants to prove a point, sure, jump in there. I'm all for it, as long as you're paying. This is America folks, and justice is available to anyone willing and able to pay for it.

 

The reason this problem exists by the way, is because of the incredible pressure UPS puts on their employees to move packages through the system at warp speed. I have had drivers tell me they have to eat lunch behind the wheel between stops or risk losing their jobs. Reasonable package care is not in their vocabulary. They don't care. They figure that if they actually did ever have to pay the occasional insurance claim it would be a lot cheaper than slowing down the system by exercising reasonable care.

 

It's their ball game and we're playing in their stadium, simply because there isn't an alternative except driving yourself to pick up and deliver guitars. And as a previous poster mentioned, I now go to extremes to do just that. The exception is when I purchase one new from a store who will eat the pieces if a guitar arrives broken, and I can rest easy.

[cod65]

this also I regret

 

It's their ball game and we're playing in their stadium, simply because there isn't an alternative except driving yourself to pick up and deliver guitars.

 

And the second-place bidder was in nearby Santa Rosa. He lost by dollars, as in 2 or three dollars. Ebay fees, postage....... I swear this thing will rise again! I'm studying up on the feasibility of doing it myself, with the expectation that you can see the repair. I prefer it that way. It's more honest. I'm just going to glue it. None of that nitro finishing for me, thanks. It would take practice to get right. I would be happy to make it play nice again. My luthier buddy tells me a repair is more resonant. Certainly stronger.

I dunno if I should switch carriers for the trip back from Vermont. I suppose I could ask the buyer to switch. I've actually heard good things about the USPS (for shipping guitars). You don't get to say that too often anymore!

[cod65]

 

But their attorneys carefully craft clauses and loopholes into the contracts to keep them from having to pay.

 

Welcome to Kapitalism!

[Blunote]

 

 

This. 100% on the money.

 

The thought that a private individual has justice available to him by hiring a 4-5 hundred dollar an hour attorney qualified to bring suit in Federal court is ludicrous. What's right, wrong, and should or shouldn't be is irrelevant. They got us guys, and they will win almost every time. The only way to beat them at their own game is to pack the thing with the expectation it can survive a nuclear holocaust.

 

Of course if one is independently wealthy and just wants to prove a point, sure, jump in there. I'm all for it, as long as you're paying. This is America folks, and justice is available to anyone willing and able to pay for it.

 

The reason this problem exists by the way, is because of the incredible pressure UPS puts on their employees to move packages through the system at warp speed. I have had drivers tell me they have to eat lunch behind the wheel between stops or risk losing their jobs. Reasonable package care is not in their vocabulary. They don't care. They figure that if they actually did ever have to pay the occasional insurance claim it would be a lot cheaper than slowing down the system by exercising reasonable care.

 

It's their ball game and we're playing in their stadium, simply because there isn't an alternative except driving yourself to pick up and deliver guitars. And as a previous poster mentioned, I now go to extremes to do just that. The exception is when I purchase one new from a store who will eat the pieces if a guitar arrives broken, and I can rest easy.

You can roll over if you like, or buy into that lawyer crap. But I still think that when you pay someone to perform a service, they have some basic undeniable responsibilies. Cod65 paid UPS to deliver the guitar. He didn't tell them to deliver any thing less, or authorize them to damage it. At the very least, he deserves a refund of what he paid since they clearly failed to perform their end of the bargain.

 

My understanding of UCC law is that while common carriers can limit their liability to an amount stated on the shipping contract, they cannot limit liability arising from their own negligence.

 

Cod65 can argue that it's unconsionable for UPS To accept payment for the transport of goods and then deny responisbility for the damage they themselves caused. In this case, he can demonstrate that the guitar was packed in a usual and customary way for transport before it was given over to be broken BY THEM.

 

If UPS chooses not to take reasonable care of such goods, then they should be willing to suffer the consequences of their own actions or stop providing the service.

 

 

"Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found

out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon

them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words

or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the

endurance of those whom they oppress."

Frederick Douglass (1817? - 1895)

[Sven]

 

But their attorneys carefully craft clauses and loopholes into the contracts to keep them from having to pay.

 

Their little clauses cannot override federal law.

 

As far as a lawyer is concerned, UPS will be the one paying him, so that's a non-issue.