Deluxe Reverb Out-of Phase Issue Resolution

[rockabilly69]

Daniel, I respect you as a player and person very much so we will have to agree to disagree. And that is what's so wonderful about music & tone.... it's all subjective!!!

 

Also, remember SRV blew up his share of amps!!! ha, ha,

Yes Kuz, it is all subjective:)

 

It's obvious we're both passionate about MUSIC and TONE! And we both like to share our opinions based on our individual quests to get what we hear in our opinionated heads! And all though we disagree on the way to get there with the Deluxe Reverb (yes we will have to agree to disagree), we both think Joe Walsh was one of the greatests guitarist ever, so we must be cut from similiar cloth:)

[rockabilly69]

Can I get a witness...?!

 

I've played Deluxes which were not well maintained and had issues with flubbiness (is that even a word?). The more they were turned up, the more they sounded "like geese farts on a muggy day."

Yes Rob "flubbiness" exactly describes the stock OXFORD speaker that was in mine.

[DetroitBlues]

You're both making me wish I kept my KBP RD...

[Guest HRB853370]

What's a PCB?

Its a drug that makes you play guitar better!

[Guest HRB853370]

You're both making me wish I kept my KBP RD...

Umm, we warned you before you sold it, admit it!

[Guest HRB853370]

 

Can I get a witness...?!

 

Can't take issue with a word Daniel has said. But.... I have volume issues. I've played Deluxes which were not well maintained and had issues with flubbiness (is that even a word?). The more they were turned up, the more they sounded "like geese farts on a muggy day." I've played some that were clean and crisp, and wanted to be pushed more than I was willing to, given the venue layout, or what was transpiring musically. "6" with a strong Deluxe, in most venues around here, is what I would consider too much. I try to make sure the context allows me to stay at "3" or "4." And, to answer Randy's question, I usually have the bass and the treble around "6," (depending on the guitar) and the reverb at "3." Interesting side note: I saw some pictures the other day of a friend, whose band opened for Bob Seger a few of weeks ago. They were playing The Charlotte Coliseum, in front of 15,000. There, mic'ed on the floor just behind him, was Joey's trusty silver face Deluxe.

What band was that Slate?

[yoslate]

Big Daddy Love, Will. Good, good guys in a hard working band. Fine players! Their ex-drummer is playing with us, Toot & the Longshots, currently.

[Guest HRB853370]

Here is an alternate take given to me from my buddy, and former HOCer Mike (Slider13).

 

The reason pulling V1 (normal channel) will increase the overall gain to the amp is because V1 & V2 (Reverb channel) ARE related. Mike doesn't like pulling V1, even though many do including SRV. He said you are pushing the amp harder and it is harder on the Transformers, ect.... BUT what he does do, and it approximates this affect some, is to put a slightly HOTTER tube in V1 and it will bleed over into V2 when you play through the Reverb channel. Mike can give me all the rational behind it again if you guys would like, but the bottom line is that .5 of the gain from V1 is returned to V2 normally so a hotter tube in V1 will fatten the tone in V2.

 

Now having said all that, this is most useful in a BRIGHT amp where you want to thicken the tone (or maybe when using single coils over humbuckers). I tried this and could definitely hear a difference. That said, I didn't care for it. Some of the chime & articulation is lost while fattening the tone.

 

I am a FIRM believer in a GREAT clean tone from your amp will yield the BEST OD tones with a pedal. I ALWAYS use an OD and rarely turn the Deluxe Reverb up over 3. So I don't particularly like a blackface breaking up on it's own, if you do the above "mods" may be to your liking.

 

Give it a try and see if it works for you!!

What ever happened to Slider13?

[schundog]

OK, I tried Rockabilly's first suggestion, pulling V1 preamp tube, and plugging into Vibrato channel 1. WAAYY too gainy for my tastes with the volume up around 6 or 7. Better on input 2, and controllable with riding the guitar volume. I'm not sure if this is because I've already done the Fritz mod that adds Reverb to the Normal channel and puts the channels "in phase" or not, or if the Jensen Special Design speaker is just not up to the task of the higher gain. Either way, it was bad with my H170s Alumitone humbuckers, better with my MIM Jimmie Vaughan Strat with Tex-Mex pickups. Reverb has ALWAYS been too much anywhere over 3 on this amp; perhaps the different tube mentioned earlier can help with that. I'm not sure if I'll leave that first preamp tube pulled or not, but it definitely made a noticeable difference; just not sure if it made a GOOD noticeable difference in my modded DRRI with a stock speaker. SOOO many variables. Stock GT tubes, too.

[schundog]

 

[yoslate]

...and on and on. But a pretty interesting thread, indeed. I spent the day with the DRRI, figuring it out. Put the V1 back in, for no particular reason. Anywho, with the full complement of upgraded tubes and the new speaker, an Eminence Tonker, I really wrung it out. Tele, 150, Nash Paul, and 535, it delivers in a big way, without pedals, with all the guitars. The Tele and 535 were particularly outstanding. Bet the Nash Strat will kill with it, but that's still set up with .013's and an open tuning; tomorrow for that! And, per Daniel's urging, I spent a bit of time with it at "6." Everything I'd ever want, and more than I might have expected out of that box. Brian, as much as the upgraded tubes helped, and they sure did, the speaker switch was significant. I actually thought the Italian Jensen was at least adequate...until I stuffed the Eminence in. Then I heard just how "boxy" the Jensen was. The Eminence is just a richer more responsive speaker...going away, and the Deluxe deserves it! Can't wait to play it out!

[rockabilly69]

Brian, as much as the upgraded tubes helped, and they sure did, the speaker switch was significant. I actually thought the Italian Jensen was at least adequate...until I stuffed the Eminence in. Then I heard just how "boxy" the Jensen was. The Eminence is just a richer more responsive speaker...going away, and the Deluxe deserves it! Can't wait to play it out!

Yep the speaker is perhaps the best mod of all!

[Blunote]

OK, I tried Rockabilly's first suggestion, pulling V1 preamp tube, and plugging into Vibrato channel 1. WAAYY too gainy for my tastes with the volume up around 6 or 7. Better on input 2, and controllable with riding the guitar volume. I'm not sure if this is because I've already done the Fritz mod that adds Reverb to the Normal channel and puts the channels "in phase" or not, or if the Jensen Special Design speaker is just not up to the task of the higher gain. Either way, it was bad with my H170s Alumitone humbuckers, better with my MIM Jimmie Vaughan Strat with Tex-Mex pickups. Reverb has ALWAYS been too much anywhere over 3 on this amp; perhaps the different tube mentioned earlier can help with that. I'm not sure if I'll leave that first preamp tube pulled or not, but it definitely made a noticeable difference; just not sure if it made a GOOD noticeable difference in my modded DRRI with a stock speaker. SOOO many variables. Stock GT tubes, too.

 

I think the guitar volume is how its done on a DR. For myself, I agree with the those who like them dialed up to at least 7. At that level, I can get a whole range of tones from clean to dirty by changing volume and attack. My DR is still pretty tame with a Strat plugged in on all but Channel 2, Input 2.

[yoslate]

Always happy to be encouraged by the enablers here, and given that my wife is back at work, I spent a lot of time with mine at "6" the past couple of days. Certainly louder than "3," but not in a pants-blowing, Marshall way, I must say this thing really opens up and breathes there. Probably too much for me to gig with comfortably, as I'm on a crusade about volume, but it does give me pause to think. And this with no pedals! And right, Allen, I can get way out of it in a hurry with the guitar's volume knob. The guys I'll be playing with in June are a pretty aggressive bunch, so, who knows.... Might be nice to have that kind of power under my foot, so I can "get out, into traffic safely," (my old man's excuse for getting a Firebird, in '68, which turned into a family joke). Tele (with Tom Short's Windy City's), and the 535 (with Seths) sound glorious through this Deluxe!

[Blunote]

I suspect that a quality attenuator would be a worthwile investment for you. It would allow you to get that lush DR tone at listening volumes no matter what room you were in.

[JeffB]

Kinda relate and not.

Over at tgp theres a thread about Rivera Concert mods that was started in 2005 and is into part 2 and has about 1400 posts in it.

Ive tried some of the mods myself and paid while another guy did them for me while I stood around and strummed chords and played licks as we ran through some of the more complicated mods and more basic tube swaps.

Ive swapped tubes, resistors, caps etc removed fx loop and reverb tubes, clipped and bridged stuff. Ive stopped short of doing the full invasive and total rewire/new circuit type mods which would make it a different amp any way.

End result is the amp is back to stock except the only thing that really ever changed it in a meaningful, useful or desirable way. The speaker.

It has a more British voiced Celestion in it. It handles the gain better and colours the sound more to my liking.

 

I went through a similar binge with my Mesas LSC head after reading about some mods over at Boogie Board and at tgp.

Swapped pots, clipped and bridged, tubes etc etc.

Its back to stock except for a bias kit and a new speaker and cab.

 

What has been hard for me to grasp is how important speaker break up is to me. Speaker break up is what ties any pre or power amp break up together in either a nice way or a not so nice way.

I used to think I was chasing nonexistent eq settings or power amp break up. Every where on the web I was reading about the importance of tubes working their magic and about "big steel" and power amp break up and righteous tube tone.

Then one day I converted my Concert combo into a head and ran it through a friends bashed up marshall 212 cab and there it was, or almost. Enough for me to start looking at cabs and speakers.

Ive found the right combination of speakers(3) that satisfies the eq thing and break up yet retains the thud and thunk of a larger watt amp but at very modest volumes and it was speakers and nothing else except maybe help from the cab.

This also is the exact same case with my Mesa LSC, its just that it works better with a different speaker and cab combination. Kind takes away from it being a cheap easy fix. Why is tone such a pain in the butt.

[H]

 

On almost every Fender amp I've ever owned, never above "3," Howard. This one was a little more twitchy that the others, so, yes, the 12AU7 tamed it a bit.

There's another tube type that helps with this particular issue, Rob. Have a look at the 12DW7 - half 12AU7, half 12AX7; it tames the reverb without sacrificing any of the pre-amp gain aspect of that tube position.

[Kuz]

There's another tube type that helps with this particular issue, Rob. Have a look at the 12DW7 - half 12AU7, half 12AX7; it tames the reverb without sacrificing any of the pre-amp gain aspect of that tube position.

Mike "Slider13" swears by this tube for reverb for exactly the reason H stated. I have not tried one yet, but I should!

[MrB]

Interesting discussion, makes me want to enroll in an electronics course.

 

In my earlier question about using a 'weaker' preamp tube to get lower volume

overdrive, I assumed the preamp tube was the one that was doing the clipping

when you crank it up. Apparently, putting a 'stronger' valve in the preamp

pushes the power tubes into overdrive, and that's were the glorious sound

comes from.

Or am I still totally ignorant?

However, I've read it's really bad for the amp to use a stronger preamp tube.

True or not?

 

Some of the other suggestions on the web include:

- Snipping out the vibrato channel bright cap to reduce the harsh upper frequencies,

- Snipping the leads to the vibrato tube, for an effect similar to removing the

unused preamp tube. (I never use the vibrato anyway)

Has anyone tried these?

The article that mentioned these was talking about a vintage amp. It seems much

harder to do these with a reissue.

 

Mr B

[Kuz]

Interesting discussion, makes me want to enroll in an electronics course.

 

In my earlier question about using a 'weaker' preamp tube to get lower volume

overdrive, I assumed the preamp tube was the one that was doing the clipping

when you crank it up. Apparently, putting a 'stronger' valve in the preamp

pushes the power tubes into overdrive, and that's were the glorious sound

comes from.

Or am I still totally ignorant?

However, I've read it's really bad for the amp to use a stronger preamp tube.

True or not?

 

Some of the other suggestions on the web include:

- Snipping out the vibrato channel bright cap to reduce the harsh upper frequencies,

- Snipping the leads to the vibrato tube, for an effect similar to removing the

unused preamp tube. (I never use the vibrato anyway)

Has anyone tried these?

The article that mentioned these was talking about a vintage amp. It seems much

harder to do these with a reissue.

 

Mr B

 

Clipping out the bright cap is an absolute must in my opinion (plug into the "normal channel" and if you like that tone, that is what you will get with the bright cap clipped on the vibrato in). Since there are no bright switches on the DR, Fender had the bad idea of using a bright cap so the "bright" would be permanently on when you use the vibrato channel. Clip it off, I don't know anyone that has used a DR for any length of time that has not clipped it out of there.

 

You won't hurt the amp with a stronger or weaker 12AX7 preamp tube in V1 &/or V2. Yes, a stronger preamp tube will drive the amp into distortion sooner and your amp will break up soon, and also decrease the amp of clean volume (clean headroom). Personally, I use OD pedals so I want the clean headroom.

 

I won't mess with anything to do with the vibrato, I love it when I use it. I personally wouldn't clip anything that affects the vibrato effect (I am not talking about the bright cap, remove that bad boy).

 

THE BEST mods you can do (in my opinion, in this order)....

1) Remove bright cap

2) Replace the preamp tubes with 60s era RCA 12AX7 & !2AT7s (12AT7s for Reverb & PI tube). You can use whatever cheap the vibrato 12Ax7 that powers the vibrato, it doesn't effect the tone

3) Get a better speaker, this is subjective, but many people like the Weber 12F150 or !2A150

4) Get some Tug-sol Reissue 6v6 power tubes (many believe these are the best new made 6v6s out there)

 

If you do the above mods, you won't want to do anything else to the amp.... Trust me!!!

[H]

Mr B, there's no 'stronger' pre-amp tube than a 12AX7 - it's 'gain factor' (the important bit, i.e. by how much it amplifies the signal passed through it) is 100. Other 12A_7 type tubes have either the same or less gain.

 

At a certain point, the signal passing through the tube will overwhelm its capabilities and instead of producing a smooth sine wave of output, it will begin to lose the top and bottom of the sine wave, otherwise known as clipping. This is what is happening when the tubes are overdriven.

 

A 12AY7 tube, with a gain factor of 40 or so, will hit its overdrive point at roughly the same level as a 12AX7 but will only have amplified the signal passing through it by 40 times.

 

Remember that a lot of amps have multiple gain stages (tubes amplifying signal and outputting to another tube's signal path) so dropping a lower gain tube into an amp can affect the tone right through the amp.

 

In my 5E3, I like having a 5751 in the first pre-amp position (V1). This has a gain factor of 70 and gives it a little more clean headroom as less signal is pushed into the 12AX7 in V2. Still gets mean and dirty around 6 though - it's just a bit quieter when it gets there

[Kuz]

Mr B, there's no 'stronger' pre-amp tube than a 12AX7 - it's 'gain factor' (the important bit, i.e. by how much it amplifies the signal passed through it) is 100. Other 12A_7 type tubes have either the same or less gain.

 

At a certain point, the signal passing through the tube will overwhelm its capabilities and instead of producing a smooth sine wave of output, it will begin to lose the top and bottom of the sine wave, otherwise known as clipping. This is what is happening when the tubes are overdriven.

 

A 12AY7 tube, with a gain factor of 40 or so, will hit its overdrive point at roughly the same level as a 12AX7 but will only have amplified the signal passing through it by 40 times.

 

Remember that a lot of amps have multiple gain stages (tubes amplifying signal and outputting to another tube's signal path) so dropping a lower gain tube into an amp can affect the tone right through the amp.

 

In my 5E3, I like having a 5751 in the first pre-amp position (V1). This has a gain factor of 70 and gives it a little more clean headroom as less signal is pushed into the 12AX7 in V2. Still gets mean and dirty around 6 though - it's just a bit quieter when it gets there

 

Yep, H, that is exactly what I did when I had my Tweed Deluxe and it was a HUGE improvement!!!

[rockabilly69]

Kuz, I have 5751s in the first position on almost every amp I own that uses 12AX7s in V1. As you know I like to wind up the power section of my amps,

so 5751s keep everything in check:)

[koula901]

"Why is tone such a pain in the butt."

 

You know what guys, we all do an aweful lot of obsessing about tone. I was thinking about this the other day, and thought: if I was a monster player, would anyone be listening to my tone, or saying to himself: wow, I really like those licks, or that solo. When I listen to music, I listen to it as a whole, first, and then the solos, only if they're interesting, or gawdawful boring. I only notice the tone when its so trebly that it's grating on my nerves, or, on occasion, to admire that fat jazz box tone. But 90% of the time, for me, it's what the playah is playing.

[schundog]

"Why is tone such a pain in the butt."

 

You know what guys, we all do an aweful lot of obsessing about tone. I was thinking about this the other day, and thought: if I was a monster player, would anyone be listening to my tone, or saying to himself: wow, I really like those licks, or that solo. When I listen to music, I listen to it as a whole, first, and then the solos, only if they're interesting, or gawdawful boring. I only notice the tone when its so trebly that it's grating on my nerves, or, on occasion, to admire that fat jazz box tone. But 90% of the time, for me, it's what the playah is playing.

PARTY POOPER!! Now, if you will excuse, me, I need to go change the 9 volt batteries in my pedals to Eveready; Eric Johnson told me that they have much better tone than the Duralast batteries WAS using.....