Is it just me? But... prices headed downhill!

[Patrick]

The best business model isnt necessarily the biggest or most obvious.

Maybe the best is one that allows you to live comfortably and play golf or go fishing every second afternoon.

Maybe a whisper is all it takes.

 

That's very true tully. But that's not what we are debating here. There seems to be a belief that the business model you describe above, is the model . . . . or at least the philosiphical approach that the owners are applying to their market penetration and sales volume levels. That belief, in my opinion, is a belief that some of the members who have participated in the discussion on this topic many times, is what some would like to believe as true .. .. because, they themselves are perfectly comfortable with the sales levels and exposure of Heritage products being right where they are.

 

Again, I have to believe what I heard from the owners . . . . they are not starving, they are not in jeopardy of closing their doors . . . but, they are down to 4 day work weeks. That's not by design. They want and need more dealers and more business.

[mark555]

[quote name='Patrick' date='Aug 23 2010, 12:34 PM' post='116904'

 

Again, I have to believe what I heard from the owners . . . . they are not starving, they are not in jeopardy of closing their doors . . . but, they are down to 4 day work weeks. That's not by design. They want and need more dealers and more business.

 

Patrick, you make this point well, with more knowledge on the Heritage company weekly dealings than I have. While I obviously want Heritage to do well, I really do not care if the whole world appreciates them or just a select few that have found that Heritage make great guitars, it's as it is. Of course, if the world economy was better and I was in a well paying job, no doubt I would by now have bought a 150 with a stunning top, all built to my specs.

[mark555]

Just an addition to my last post.

 

Patrick, I have to agree with you on the exposure of Gibson and Fender, I think both companies are trading on names built in their golden ages of production, and it seems to be working for them. But I also have to say that the standard USA tele isn't too bad a guitar if you get one very heavily discounted. I think a lot of this relic stuff that costs fortunes is very much a case of the emperors new clothes - horendously over priced but many people are going along with the hype because they don't want to be seen as the one who says it's all hogwash.

 

When I asked a couple of dealers over here why they won't stock Heritage the simple reply is that they can't sell them, and that people will pay more for a similar Gibson because they have to have the Gibson brand, same with Fender. And now the kids getting their first guitar want the awful chinese Squier brand because it says made by fender on the headstock, while an entry level Yamaha Pacifica is vastly superior.

[Patrick]

Just an addition to my last post.

 

Patrick, I have to agree with you on the exposure of Gibson and Fender, I think both companies are trading on names built in their golden ages of production, and it seems to be working for them. But I also have to say that the standard USA tele isn't too bad a guitar if you get one very heavily discounted. I think a lot of this relic stuff that costs fortunes is very much a case of the emperors new clothes - horendously over priced but many people are going along with the hype because they don't want to be seen as the one who says it's all hogwash.

 

When I asked a couple of dealers over here why they won't stock Heritage the simple reply is that they can't sell them, and that people will pay more for a similar Gibson because they have to have the Gibson brand, same with Fender. And now the kids getting their first guitar want the awful chinese Squier brand because it says made by fender on the headstock, while an entry level Yamaha Pacifica is vastly superior.

 

Yep . . . . and that my friend, is the shame of it all. The dealers that you asked say they can't sell them, when you asked why they don't stock Heritages. I'm sure they belive that's true . . . but it isn't. What they should be saying is . . ."nobody is coming in asking for Heritage". That would be more accurate. It's the same here in the US. Most dealers are just waiting for people to walk in to their store, knowing what they want. The dealers like to think they are there just to process a request. In order for a vendor, or a brand, to be successful in this scenario, the vendor, vis-a-vis Heritage needs to pull the sale through the dealer buy creating brand demand. Pull through marketing 101. Just look at dealers like Wolfe Guitars. He's not there just to process an order. He SELLS. Look at the way he presents his Heritage guitars on his web site. The presentation is beautiful. Listen to his and Graham's passion when you ask them why someone should buy a Heritage instead of a Gibson . . . or a G & L instead of a Fender. That's selling. It isn't that the dealers in the UK can't sell Heritage guitars. If they wanted to they could . . . just like Jay Wolfe. They choose to take the easy way out by just providing the customer with the brand that is in demand. That brand get there by exposure.

[Spectrum13]

Watching the HOC grow from 400 members when I joined in March 2008 to a couple of thousand plus today, I conclude they are doing a couple of things right. Social media and a great product makes a powerfull demand generator. However with the economy dipping at the same time, I would argue they might have been down to three days a week but for the HOC and us fathiful spreading the word. My modest demand for Heritage was at one per year. I skipped 2010 due to finance issues and I can't be the only one feeling it.

Marketing has done a great job keeping the public brand loyal. They create value in a name. So many threads on headstock shape just echo's Don Drapper's words " People want to be told what to buy". So I can't fault a retailer in England or the USA stocking what their customer demands vs investing thousands of dollars to stock a not so well know brand in this economy. Wolfe has spent dozens of years and hundred's of thousands of dollars "selling Heritage" and believes in Kzoo. Their website and ability to ship overseas is a tremendous plus. So it works for them but there has to be more than a few retailers unable to make that kind of investment in capital at this time.

 

Should you be so fortunate as to not be feeling the pinch right now, good for you and G*& bless. Lots ot retail stores and manufactors are not doing so great right now.

[Patrick]

Watching the HOC grow from 400 members when I joined in March 2008 to a couple of thousand plus today, I conclude they are doing a couple of things right. Social media and a great product makes a powerfull demand generator. However with the economy dipping at the same time, I would argue they might have been down to three days a week but for the HOC and us fathiful spreading the word. My modest demand for Heritage was at one per year. I skipped 2010 due to finance issues and I can't be the only one feeling it.

Marketing has done a great job keeping the public brand loyal. They create value in a name. So many threads on headstock shape just echo's Don Drapper's words " People want to be told what to buy". So I can't fault a retailer in England or the USA stocking what their customer demands vs investing thousands of dollars to stock a not so well know brand in this economy. Wolfe has spent dozens of years and hundred's of thousands of dollars "selling Heritage" and believes in Kzoo. Their website and ability to ship overseas is a tremendous plus. So it works for them but there has to be more than a few retailers unable to make that kind of investment in capital at this time.

 

Should you be so fortunate as to not be feeling the pinch right now, good for you and G*& bless. Lots ot retail stores and manufactors are not doing so great right now.

 

 

Spectrum13 . . . . can't disagree with anything you've said here. And we will all continue to do our share to further the cause. Heritage needs help in reaching some of those dealer you so aptly defined. There is one thing I would like to say to you, however . . . . if you would allow me to do so. You may . . . . and should . . . feel free to spell out GOD. We don't need any G*& bless. You may say GOD bless. Please do so. Thanks.

[Spectrum13]

Spectrum13 . . . . can't disagree with anything you've said here. And we will all continue to do our share to further the cause. Heritage needs help in reaching some of those dealer you so aptly defined. There is one thing I would like to say to you, however . . . . if you would allow me to do so. You may . . . . and should . . . feel free to spell out GOD. We don't need any G*& bless. You may say GOD bless. Please do so. Thanks.

 

 

Ok,

 

God bless Patrick for doing more than his share to support and promote Heritage sales and the American archtop guitar. And a fine son of Jersey City you are!

Still can't spell G!%$on on the HOC.

[Patrick]

Ok,

 

God bless Patrick for doing more than his share to support and promote Heritage sales and the American archtop guitar. And a fine son of Jersey City you are!

Still can't spell G!%$on on the HOC.

 

Why not??? I can! GOD It's what our country was founded upon. In GOD we trust. One nation under GOD. Ours is a country that was founded and expanded under the principals of Christian Judeo guidance.

[Spectrum13]

Why not??? I can! GOD It's what our country was founded upon. In GOD we trust. One nation under GOD. Ours is a country that was founded and expanded under the principals of Christian Judeo guidance.

 

 

Talking about the name Gib$on on the smokestack 225 Parsons Street. SACRED GROUND.

[Patrick]

Talking about the name Gib$on on the smokestack 225 Parsons Street. SACRED GROUND.

 

 

OOPS!! My apologies. Misinterpreted the type. But you can say Gibson if you want to. Gibson . . . Gibson . . . . Gibson. It's not a taboo word here . . . or at least it shouldn't be. Without Gibson, there would be no Jim Duerloo, no Marv Lamb, no JP Moats, no Bill Paige, no Jack French, no Aaron Cowles . . . . no Heritage as we know it. Think of it. No H150s, no Golden Eagles, no Super Eagles, no H535s, no H575s, no H555s . . . no 137s, no Sweet 16s, no PSPs. In fact, I believe that GOD himself has a few of the finer pre 1984 Gibsons. I believe that his hands helped to guide Marv's hands as he rolled the neck for my Golden Eagle. I believe that GOD helps to keep Floyd's hands from shaking too much as he shades the guitars up in the spray room. I believe that his touch and influence helps all the employees at 225 Parsons Street to continue carrying the torch.

 

Never, ever forget, or be afraid to recall the history and . . . . the Heritage!!

 

Damn, I should'a been a writer. I love typing this shit.

[Guest mgoetting]

Again, I have to believe what I heard from the owners . . . . they are not starving, they are not in jeopardy of closing their doors . . . but, they are down to 4 day work weeks. That's not by design. They want and need more dealers and more business.

 

Don't assume they are stable. The local economy continues to decline and their overhead increases. The U6 unemployment figures for Michigan are now a whopping 22%.

 

They have fewer employees than the average McDonalds, more than a few facing retirement soon. Their physical assets are limited- an old factory in a decaying city and some old machines. Their goodwill (name, reputation) has some value certainly.

 

I'm a small business owner in Kalamazoo also. I feel much of the same pain.

 

We all wish them the very best. But don't assume. And don't expect them to let on how much trouble they are in, any more than GM or Chrysler did prior to their crumble.

 

They work from 7:30 to 3:30 four days a week. That's it. There's a true sign.

 

I expect to get emotional responses to this posting. That's fine. I'm angry about it, too.

 

Cherish what you got, guys. That's all I'm saying. No one knows how long any good thing will last.

 

It would be a great irony that if for Heritage to survive, it moves out of town. Exactly what Gibson did that lead to the founding of Heritage.

[Guest mgoetting]

OOPS!! My apologies. Misinterpreted the type. But you can say Gibson if you want to. Gibson . . . Gibson . . . . Gibson. It's not a taboo word here . . . or at least it shouldn't be. Without Gibson, there would be no Jim Duerloo, no Marv Lamb, no JP Moats, no Bill Paige, no Jack French, no Aaron Cowles . . . . no Heritage as we know it. Think of it. No H150s, no Golden Eagles, no Super Eagles, no H535s, no H575s, no H555s . . . no 137s, no Sweet 16s, no PSPs. In fact, I believe that GOD himself has a few of the finer pre 1984 Gibsons. I believe that his hands helped to guide Marv's hands as he rolled the neck for my Golden Eagle. I believe that GOD helps to keep Floyd's hands from shaking too much as he shades the guitars up in the spray room. I believe that his touch and influence helps all the employees at 225 Parsons Street to continue carrying the torch.

 

Never, ever forget, or be afraid to recall the history and . . . . the Heritage!!

 

Damn, I should'a been a writer. I love typing this shit.

 

 

Did you forget your Valium?

[cod65]

Why not??? I can! GOD It's what our country was founded upon. In GOD we trust. One nation under GOD. Ours is a country that was founded and expanded under the principals of Christian Judeo guidance.

 

 

Yes you can say it all day if you want , thanks to our constitution.

 

But I did a little googling, and the fact of the matter is neither one of the above phrases has any origin in the founding days of this country.

 

I was under the impression that the Founders were more smitten with Greek and Latin phrases and principals. But I'm no 'student of history' truth be told.

 

E Pluribus Unum !

[mark555]

My modest demand for Heritage was at one per year. I skipped 2010 due to finance issues and I can't be the only one feeling it.

Should you be so fortunate as to not be feeling the pinch right now, good for you and G*& bless. Lots ot retail stores and manufactors are not doing so great right now.

 

One guitar a year would be an absolute luxury for me! I bought my 555 five years ago, and just bought a new guitar, so on that time table there won't be another for quite a while now!

[Dick Seacup]

Did someone say:

 

[Steiner]

Did someone say:

 

 

Whow! Look at the headstock on that bad boy...

[JeffB]

Everybody here wants to see Heritage do well and prosper. But there are no guitar builders big or small having a growth period right now. Heritage are probably maintaining their market share just like every body else is. New guitar sales are down. New amp sales are down. New FX pedal sales are down. Bass sales are at an all time low. Piano, saxaphone, clarinet, flute, trumpet, carpet, new car, real estate, and most furniture sales are down.

Despite 3 staff members owning, gigging and loving their Heritages, we had to let the line go. It cut me deeply.

No matter how much we tried to put them forward the average punter wanted a Gibson. Some would not even be willing to try a Heritage even though we told them the history. They wanted a Gibson Les Paul or a Gibson 335. End of story. I was getting in their way with this other nonsense about Heritage and soon learnt to back down before they got pissed off and walked out the door. It wasnt just about sales for me, it was personal. I wanted people to have a great guitar.

Pleased to say that the people who bought Heritages absolutely love them and most are gigging with them. One of them was the local PRS rep. People that are around guitars, love guitars for what they are rather than the name one the headstock.

Heritage Guitar Co I think are better served by having a few major dealers with a large inventory of each model than having them in every second store with 3 or 4 guitars.

Competing for a presence with 30-60 Gibsons and 75 Fenders in a store is a big ask. Even manufacturers with a better market profile struggle.

I would love to bang on more about different aspects about why we dont stock them anymore and what I think Heritage should do, but its kind of pointless and will just get lost along with the other opinions and conjecture in this thread.

Its ok for not everybody to want to play Heritage. Some people dont like PRS or Tom Andersons, Ernie Ball/Musicman, Brian Moore, Ibanez or ESP. All are extremely fine, well made instruments. Great in fact. Top class. They have their detractors as well. On those forums they have similar threads to this. "Why dont more people play (insert brand)"

[Guest mgoetting]

Everybody here wants to see Heritage do well and prosper. But there are no guitar builders big or small having a growth period right now. Heritage are probably maintaining their market share just like every body else is. New guitar sales are down. New amp sales are down. New FX pedal sales are down. Bass sales are at an all time low. Piano, saxaphone, clarinet, flute, trumpet, carpet, new car, real estate, and most furniture sales are down.

Despite 3 staff members owning, gigging and loving their Heritages, we had to let the line go. It cut me deeply.

No matter how much we tried to put them forward the average punter wanted a Gibson. Some would not even be willing to try a Heritage even though we told them the history. They wanted a Gibson Les Paul or a Gibson 335. End of story. I was getting in their way with this other nonsense about Heritage and soon learnt to back down before they got pissed off and walked out the door. It wasnt just about sales for me, it was personal. I wanted people to have a great guitar.

Pleased to say that the people who bought Heritages absolutely love them and most are gigging with them. One of them was the local PRS rep. People that are around guitars, love guitars for what they are rather than the name one the headstock.

Heritage Guitar Co I think are better served by having a few major dealers with a large inventory of each model than having them in every second store with 3 or 4 guitars.

Competing for a presence with 30-60 Gibsons and 75 Fenders in a store is a big ask. Even manufacturers with a better market profile struggle.

I would love to bang on more about different aspects about why we dont stock them anymore and what I think Heritage should do, but its kind of pointless and will just get lost along with the other opinions and conjecture in this thread.

Its ok for not everybody to want to play Heritage. Some people dont like PRS or Tom Andersons, Ernie Ball/Musicman, Brian Moore, Ibanez or ESP. All are extremely fine, well made instruments. Great in fact. Top class. They have their detractors as well. On those forums they have similar threads to this. "Why dont more people play (insert brand)"

 

 

It goes beyond international economics. There are local realities that amplify the negatives in Michigan.

 

A friend of mine is an academic economist who just returned from Perth. Interestingly, he told me that Perth's colleges have a problem resulting from a positive in the economy: mining. There are not enough college students because an 18 year old can make about $120-130K USD per year mining. My friend was brought to Perth to help work on ways to increase the number of kids who opt for college.

 

Michigan has only one big natural resource- fresh water. This will become a money maker in a few decades we think. Tourism is seasonal and only so-so during the summer even. We had auto manufacturing. For all the good unions did, they priced us out of competition. A UAW member a few years ago would make over $120K when you include bennies. Toyota and Honda doesn't pay close to that. The shipping advantage of close access to the St. Lawrence Seaway is moot in 2010. Winter operating costs are higher than in the south. The rest of the State props up Detroit. Etc....

 

Yes, the entertainment industry is in a slump internationally. Michigan goes well beyond that.

 

Now I will drop the subject and get off the gloom wagon.

[JeffB]

It goes beyond international economics. There are local realities that amplify the negatives in Michigan.

 

A friend of mine is an academic economist who just returned from Perth. Interestingly, he told me that Perth's colleges have a problem resulting from a positive in the economy: mining. There are not enough college students because an 18 year old can make about $120-130K USD per year mining. My friend was brought to Perth to help work on ways to increase the number of kids who opt for college.

 

Michigan has only one big natural resource- fresh water. This will become a money maker in a few decades we think. Tourism is seasonal and only so-so during the summer even. We had auto manufacturing. For all the good unions did, they priced us out of competition. A UAW member a few years ago would make over $120K when you include bennies. Toyota and Honda doesn't pay close to that. The shipping advantage of close access to the St. Lawrence Seaway is moot in 2010. Winter operating costs are higher than in the south. The rest of the State props up Detroit. Etc....

 

Yes, the entertainment industry is in a slump internationally. Michigan goes well beyond that.

 

Now I will drop the subject and get off the gloom wagon.

I get your point but it isnt just guitar builders in Michigan that are not selling as many guitars. Its all Manufacturers. Japanese, American, Canadian and Chinese. No matter how well their product is marketed.

 

Off topic:

Mining in WA is not powering a head like you friend might be suggesting. Believe me. I worked long enough in that industry to know whats going on there. Its comparatively quiet. There have been lay offs. Its reflected in the shares that are now worth 1/2 of what they were 3yrs ago. (Trust me on this one as well)

An 18yr old can earn a lot more than some one who spends 10-12 yrs in a higher learning facility in any number of occupations. Not just mining.

[pegleg32]

Listening to all this gloom and doom, I'm now thinking about ordering a new gold top with P90's.

[Guest mgoetting]

Listening to all this gloom and doom, I'm now thinking about ordering a new gold top with P90's.

 

 

The Heritage team would appreciate it.

[the jayce]

Heritage needs to get in the guitar center, yes we all hate that place but thats where the majority of musicians go. They have got to get there guitars around the masses, not in just these little vintage shoppe's. Do they want 350 people a day walking by thier guitars or 15 people a day in the vintage shoppe.

 

I believe marketing is all of thier problem. Example---> you can have a vintage shoppe owner spend 2 hours explaining the whole heritage story to his 15 customers and then watch them walk out and head to guitar center anyways /or /guitarcenter telling thier 350 customers a day here try this heritage guitar, it's built in america-built better than the 3500 gibson- and half the price see ya at the checkout counter when your done trying it out.

 

Simple really, make it short sweet and to the point to alot of potential customers everyday, they would sell a ton more. Just look at breedlove guitars- same situation as heritage but they weasled into guitar center and now thier off and running.......................... simple simple marketing 1-0-1.

[mark555]

All our economies are being swallowed up because so much we are buying is made in China. We have to start buying what our individual countries produce. I am conciously NOT buying anything made in China, where ever possible I am buying British or German. I accept there I times when I can not. but I am trying hard to support my own economy where possible.

[Patrick]

Heritage needs to get in the guitar center, yes we all hate that place but thats where the majority of musicians go. They have got to get there guitars around the masses, not in just these little vintage shoppe's. Do they want 350 people a day walking by thier guitars or 15 people a day in the vintage shoppe.

 

I believe marketing is all of thier problem. Example---> you can have a vintage shoppe owner spend 2 hours explaining the whole heritage story to his 15 customers and then watch them walk out and head to guitar center anyways /or /guitarcenter telling thier 350 customers a day here try this heritage guitar, it's built in america-built better than the 3500 gibson- and half the price see ya at the checkout counter when your done trying it out.

 

Simple really, make it short sweet and to the point to alot of potential customers everyday, they would sell a ton more. Just look at breedlove guitars- same situation as heritage but they weasled into guitar center and now thier off and running.......................... simple simple marketing 1-0-1.

 

If Heritage was to secure a deal with GC it would be an absolute nightmare and would probably lead to the complete destruction of the Heritage Guitar Company. Unless it was done on a pilot program basis in just a very few isolated GC locations. Think of it . . . if GC was to order just 4 guitars for each store, it would result in an order for hundreds of guitars!! What the hell would Heritage do with that?? They couldn't ramp up production quickly enough to fill the order . . . and if they tried to . . . they would need to devote virtually every resource, financial and employee, to the GC order. Every other dealer customer's order would need to take a back seat. That would piss off . . . every dealer they have . . . including Jay Wolfe. Their loyal dealers would leave them in droves. When Heritage failed to deliver, as expected, to GC. . . . GC would then abandon them too. They would be left with nothing . . . except additional debt from buying all of the raw materials needed to fill the GC order!!

 

Heritage is not the right vendor for GC . . . and GC is not the right dealer for Heritage.

[mark555]

If Heritage was to secure a deal with GC it would be an absolute nightmare and would probably lead to the complete destruction of the Heritage Guitar Company. Unless it was done on a pilot program basis in just a very few isolated GC locations. Think of it . . . if GC was to order just 4 guitars for each store, it would result in an order for hundreds of guitars!! What the hell would Heritage do with that?? They couldn't ramp up production quickly enough to fill the order . . . and if they tried to . . . they would need to devote virtually every resource, financial and employee, to the GC order. Every other dealer customer's order would need to take a back seat. That would piss off . . . every dealer they have . . . including Jay Wolfe. Their loyal dealers would leave them in droves. When Heritage failed to deliver, as expected, to GC. . . . GC would then abandon them too. They would be left with nothing . . . except additional debt from buying all of the raw materials needed to fill the GC order!!

 

Heritage is not the right vendor for GC . . . and GC is not the right dealer for Heritage.

 

Although not American, I have to agree with the above. For twelve years I was a sales manager (vice president in your terminology) for a company that manufactured upholsered lounge furnitue. The big retailer over here is a company called DFS, and I would not take our products any where near them, or other large retail groups. On top of all of what Patrick says, they also want huge discounts for the orders they give and although you might sell far more, there is the strong possibility that the added business will not be very profitable.

 

In fact, a Branded British manufacturer of divan beds and matrasses found its business was 60% major retail groups to 40% independent retailers. On examining the profit levels, they found that supplying the large retail groups had got to the point that there just wasn't any profit in that business because they demanded so much. The company dropped them and concentrated on its independent clients and is now far more profitable

 

Yes, Guitar Centre will oprder huge volumes, but they will want huge discounts.