Is it just me? But... prices headed downhill!

[Patrick]

Yep. . . . I have to agree with all that was just posted by mark555, 111518 & Spectrum13. Many, many variables to guitar collecting . . . or any collectables for that matter. It just kinda irks me when some say it's senseless to buy expensive guitars just because their vintage. With regard to mark555 . . . you guys in the UK had it figured out long before we did here in The States. When there was increasing snob appeal and artist allure to certain brands here in the US . . . you guys were making great music with guitars other than the Gibsons, the Fenders, the Guilds, the Gretches. The Brits were making music on guitars that we in the States often refered to as "off brand" guitars.

 

Then, as the collectable aspect of certain guitars started to and continued to grow . . . the Japanese got involved. Some/many of the best and most desireable pieces are now in the hands of wealthy Japanese buisiness men . .. many of whom don't know what they are or what to do with them. All they know is that they are highly sought after by affluent Americans . . . so, they (the Wealthy Japanese businessmen) have to have them. Mercenary guitar traders keep looking for the guitars and selling them at as high a price as the Japanese will pay . . . and some of these guys have so much money they don't care how much it takes to get that special custom colored Strat. or that wrap aroung tail piece all gold '54 LP. Case and point, the Tsumura Collection. If that's new to you, Google it.

 

We, the few . . . the HOC members are very fortunate to know of the upside down value of Heritage guitars. They are clearly worth more than what we are paying . . . not in terms of market value . . at least not yet . . . but in terms of dollar value to quality ratio.

 

As for these guitars not being played by and listened to vast audiences . . . not too long ago, while the worlds most famous collector, Mr. Scott Chinery was still alive . . Martin Taylor and Steve Howe did an entire album using some of Scott's 1000 + important guitars. D'Angelicos, Strombergs, Larson Bros, Martins, '59 bursts, 50s and 60s Strats . . . Lloyd Loar F5 mando's and L5 archtops. Think of what guys like Chinery, Tsumura, Wayne Johnson, Perry Margouleff and countless other collectors have done to enhance the awareness of serious and important guitars.

 

While the market for the better and more sought after guitars will undoubtedly fluctuate, if you do your homework . . . you'll never lose a dime.

[mark555]

I remember the Martin Taylor & Steve Howe CD coming out, I read some articles about it at the time. I take your point about the collection being used Patrick, but when I was talking about not seeing and hearing the guitars that are locked away, I was personally thinking about live situations.

 

Another guitar on my wish list would be a lemon drop top, just gorgeous looking, the irony of my saying that is that I appreciate you will only get that on a vintage guitar - a real lemon drop that is, meanwhile I shall just have to wait until I can afford a nice Heritage 150 with that finish top as a custom order.

[mark555]

With regard to mark555 . . . you guys in the UK had it figured out long before we did here in The States. When there was increasing snob appeal and artist allure to certain brands here in the US . . . you guys were making great music with guitars other than the Gibsons, the Fenders, the Guilds, the Gretches. The Brits were making music on guitars that we in the States often refered to as "off brand" guitars.

 

Because of the money owed by the UK to the USA because of world war two, the British government put a ban on US imports, this of course included guitars. The irony of it was that one of the most popular brands played by British musicians was Hofner, which of course was German. One of the top session players in the country at that time was a guy called Bert Weedon, (Bert is still alive today) and he used a top of the range Hofner for his work. In the late fifties, a British guitar player called Hank Marvin got the first Strat ever to come into Britain, it was a specially imported guitar, but until American imports were officially allowed and could be found in the shops, it was exactly as Patrick has said.

 

Paul McCartney is probably the worlds most obvious user of Hofner products, playing the violin bass which he became famous for and still uses today, although he can now afford anything he wants. The Beatles bought their American guitars in Germany, I am led to believe and am willing to be corrected, that George Harrison got his first Gretch while in Hamburgh. American sailors used to bring in Gibsons, Fender's etc and sell them to musicians who would queue to get their hands on them. The earliest pictures of the Beatles playing US built guitars were taken in Germany when you could not get them in the UK.

 

Some years ago, I played in a sixties band with w great guy who is now 70. He never had much spare money, with four daughters and a job that didn't pay much. He only had one guitar, a really old Kay he had bought second hand in the early sixties with a bigsby on it. The pick ups were a P90 type with a clear plastic cover on each one, and then some sort of silver wrap under the plastic. But he had that rock and roll spirit in that he used what he had and got on with it, playing some good rock and roll and in fairness, getting a great sound with it. It was a guitar I certainly would never have been satisfied with, but he made it work very well indeed. He never did get a premium guitar, but if I win the lottery, I will buy him a couple of Heritage guitars, a nice 555 and something else to compliment it.

[111518]

Just a quick correction to my earlier post. I just got home and checked, and the series on vintage guitars as an investment in Vintage Guitar was a series, not an ongoing column, and hasn't appeared in the last few month's editions. (Didn't want anyone to go out and buy a mag based on my bad advice.)

[jjkrause84]

I seem to remember reading that Harrison got his Duo Jet in Blighty from a local shop when he was still totally unknown....bought on the equivalent of layaway or somehting

[pegleg32]

Thanks to all for the replies on investing in vintage guitars. The answer appears to be study, study, study, as I guess I implicitly understood before I asked. Thanks to 6 digit for the source info, I will see what I can find there, but I suspect that the investment of time in learning may be the limiting factor for me. I am thinking that the smarter investment for a neophyte might be in todays Heritage guitars. You have the potential for an increase in value over time, but more importantly, you have the immediate return of making music with a fine instrument. I will leave the vintage investing to those with the years of experience to profit from it, but at the same time, I'm going to see if I can increase my knowledge by studying the market for awhile. Again, thanks to all.

 

ps, I still have to find that 150 gold top with p90's.

[blueox]

"I can only speak from my own point of view. I would never buy a guitar for investment because I am just not in that position, but then again, I personally feel that a guitar is for playing.

 

Yes, it is down to supply and demand when prices of Gibson and Fender guitars from the fifties and sixties come into play, but I still say that the money for them is stupid. Lets consider what a guitar actually is, and when I see some of the current guitars on offer for the prices asked, I say yes, stupid money. Over hear in the UK the golden rule seems to be that what a guitar sells for in $ in the US, it is the same figure in £'s over here. I look at Gibson's present offerings and the Japanese are beating them hands down in bang for buck.

 

I am also dispassionate about vintage guitars, while understanding and accepting that the vintage market is as it is, I still think it's criminal that these guitars are not out there being played and listened to by audiences. I have had several guitars which have increased in value, but I have never bought them for any reason other than to play.

 

If I sound a bit on the sour side, perhaps I am, the only way my guitars will ever be vintage is by my not selling them. I really do not care if my 555 never hits a silly value, it was bought to play. On top of that, just because a guitar is a vintage piece, it doesn't mean it is automatically a good guitar, there's some real dogs out there."

 

Amen, brother. I buy a guitar for its playability, tone, looks, and maybe a certain cool factor. Plus, I have to be able to actually play it within a reasonable amount of time in rotation within a week or so, and not stored in its case somewhere. I am not interested in its resale value, but rather what it is worth to me. Many (most?) of the vintage guitars out there cannot hold a candle to a Heritage in these qualities, in my opinion, no matter the cost. Unfortunately, I do see "vintage obsession" and "collector mania" out there, as for example, I met a guy (bass player) working his day job in a local big-box store stocking shelves, who owns 200+ guitars and basses and is constantly on the prowl for another one or two or three . . .

[Hfan]

Unfortunately, I do see "vintage obsession" and "collector mania" out there, as for example, I met a guy (bass player) working his day job in a local big-box store stocking shelves, who owns 200+ guitars and basses and is constantly on the prowl for another one or two or three . . .

In some cases this behavior may be construed as hoarding. Similar to obsessive/compulsive shopping etc.

[koula901]

The economy is in the crapper and despite the assertions of those who wish to remain in power and those who wish to suck up to those who wish to remain in power, it isn't improving any time soon. It's a question of demographics and multiple cycles hitting a downturn at the same time. The baby boomer generation, the largest generation of American consumers ever, is hitting the point in the curve where they aren't spending. The next largest demographic, the so-called "echo boom" generation, still much smaller than the baby boomers, has just passed the peak of their age-related spending curve. It's a slow slide for them for about another 10-15 years, when they'll have a small up-tick and a brief, lower peak before slinking off into retirement land as well.

 

(lots of good stuff deleted)

 

Dick, I'm very impressed with your extensive knowledge of the economy. Are you an economist? This is all quite fascinating, and to think about how economics interplays with politics - there is just not enough time in a day to be studying all this, so, I appreciate your encapsulating it for us.

[Patrick]

In some cases this behavior may be construed as hoarding. Similar to obsessive/compulsive shopping etc.

 

 

Now, this reply is . . . funny. (of course I use the word funny just to be kind) Comparing guitar collecting with OCD or hoarding??? Now I've heard it all!!!

[Hfan]

Now, this reply is . . . funny. (of course I use the word funny just to be kind) Comparing guitar collecting with OCD or hoarding??? Now I've heard it all!!!

 

Thanks for the kindness..I said in some cases. In the quoted message, the guy works in a big box store and has amassed 200 guitars, maybe he is a collector, maybe he is a compulsive shopper with an underlying emotional problem. As a matter of fact, thats how I got my575, was Christmas time several years back, I was getting the royal screwing from a newly hired corporate supervisor. Bought myself the 575, did wonders, cheered me right up.

[111518]

In some cases this behavior may be construed as hoarding. Similar to obsessive/compulsive shopping etc.

 

I think this is absolutely true, and I wonder if there is a genetic component, although who can definitively separate nature and nurture?

I grew up with three male cousins:

I have a house full of guitars and amps and books and cds, when the house itself is a long-term construction site. Sane?

One cousin is a major comic book collector. Has a house and a barn and a retail shop full of comic books.(Thought he might be the model for the guy in The Simpsons, but he assures me all comic book collectors look like that.)

 

The other two found for the perfect job for folks like us. They are librarians.

[Patrick]

You guys can invent all the excuses you want to . . . . for your wives. We all know that it's just a matter of wanting more and more guitars. There's nothing obssesive about it. We just can't control our selves when we see a guitar for sale . . . . and it has nothing to do with hoarding . . . we just can't seem to bring ourselves to part with any of our beloved guitars. As I see it, it's perfectly normal behavior. Oh . . . by the way, you guy's got anything for sale????

[Mpcoluv]

While I don't have any lofty economic models, I think Heritage suffers from lack of advertising.

I have a friend who know all about Burny/Tokai/Edwards MIJ guitars but has never heard of Heritage until I mentioned it to him.

I personally like the fact that Heritage guitars are undervalued compared to Gibsons.

Maybe I can snag a few more bargains.

[Gitfiddler]

While I don't have any lofty economic models, I think Heritage suffers from lack of advertising.

I have a friend who know all about Burny/Tokai/Edwards MIJ guitars but has never heard of Heritage until I mentioned it to him.

I personally like the fact that Heritage guitars are undervalued compared to Gibsons.

Maybe I can snag a few more bargains.

 

 

While I agree that Heritage may suffer a bit from their lack of any decent ad campaign strategy, I don't recall ever seeing an ad for Burny, Tokai or Edwards guitars. The only Pacific Rim guitar makers that have regular ads seem to be Ibanez and Yamaha. When it comes to the big bucks needed to get the word out, it is obvious that size matters. Heritage doesn't operate on huge profit margins or have a wide brand range like most of the big boys do. Instead they've got a very unique market niche, building custom, handmade guitars here in the USA. That's a good thing in my opinion. And yes, on the used market, there are bargains to be had. But that is pretty much the case for most brands due to the current economic conditions.

[mark555]

While I agree that Heritage may suffer a bit from their lack of any decent ad campaign strategy, I don't recall ever seeing an ad for Burny, Tokai or Edwards guitars. The only Pacific Rim guitar makers that have regular ads seem to be Ibanez and Yamaha. When it comes to the big bucks needed to get the word out, it is obvious that size matters. Heritage doesn't operate on huge profit margins or have a wide brand range like most of the big boys do. Instead they've got a very unique market niche, building custom, handmade guitars here in the USA. That's a good thing in my opinion. And yes, on the used market, there are bargains to be had. But that is pretty much the case for most brands due to the current economic conditions.

 

I think that a player who is serious about finding a good working guitar will go out and explore the market, talking to other players, gaining the knowledge he needs, and if he or she is serious enough, they will find what is out there and right for them regardless of what ever advertising comes in front of them. Nowadays the internet is such a powerful tool for gaining knowledge, and people like ourselves can interact with one another, finding out no end of information just by reading the threads of various massage boards.

[Patrick]

I think that a player who is serious about finding a good working guitar will go out and explore the market, talking to other players, gaining the knowledge he needs, and if he or she is serious enough, they will find what is out there and right for them regardless of what ever advertising comes in front of them. Nowadays the internet is such a powerful tool for gaining knowledge, and people like ourselves can interact with one another, finding out no end of information just by reading the threads of various massage boards.

 

Mark; Your's is a very idealistic assessment that we would all like to believe is true. And sometimes it is true, as we here on the HOC are a testament to. We sometimes mistakenly believe that the majority of people would react in the same way we might . . . or proact in the same way we might. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, or more appropriately . . . often, that not the case. If what you say is correct, then Heritage's business would be 10 fold greater than it is.

 

It's true that people searching for quality guitars might not always decide on a Heritage . . . for a variety of reasons, with the biggest reason being that Heritage is not the only great quality instrument on the market with good dollar value. But still, if more astute people were as diligent as you would like to believe, Heritage would be at least double it's current size. I don't for one minute buy into the statements I've read here in the past that the owners like things just the way they are and don't want to grow. With the exception of Vince, they're all pretty near retirement and when they cash in . . or out, as it were . . . they want the net value of Heritage to be as high as possible. (by the way, that comes to my ears directly from 2 of the owners). In a business of any type, at the end, it's all about the EBITDA.

 

I agree with gitfiddler about Heritage suffering from lack of advertising . . . or as I always said . . . lack of exposure.

[Dick Seacup]

Dick, I'm very impressed with your extensive knowledge of the economy. Are you an economist? This is all quite fascinating, and to think about how economics interplays with politics - there is just not enough time in a day to be studying all this, so, I appreciate your encapsulating it for us.

 

No, and I don't even play one on TV! I am, however, an interested bystander who wishes to avoid being dragged under the bus.

 

In all seriousness (or at least as much as I can muster), I am a former member of the American Economic Association (AEA; far too academic) and the National Association for Business Economics (NABE; very pragmatic and "applied") and was even a participant in their mentor program (as a mentee; my mentor was/is the Chief Economist for FMC). It was a very educational experience. I let both memberships expire this year because I...well, I'm not sure why. I think I just forgot to renew them. Hrmmm.

 

My interest in philosophy (I consider politics and economics as being deeply rooted in philosophy, some consider them to be "sciences") is a long running thing, but I am mostly self-taught (I hesitate to say self-educated, because, as I explained to 111518, I probably have arrived at many invalid conclusions) through voracious consumption of printed materials (sometimes I don't eat the covers). I am considering starting the Autodidactical Explorers Club...anyone want in?

[mark555]

Patrick, my comments were in relation to what I consider to be the intelligent people who want to look beyond Gibson and Fender. In Gitfiddler's post, which I quoted, he mentioned other Japanese makers. There are some fantastic Japanese guitars: Tokai, Fernandez, Burney, Yamaha to nam As Gitfiddler says, these companies do not advertise, but they are there.

 

I personally feel that the guys at Heritage have got it spot on. They do not want the hassle and aggravation of growing the company, they get a living they must be happy with and produce for a niche market that no one else is touching right now. If they expand the business it just becomes a monster that needs feeding, prices go up and quality go's down, as we have seen elsewhere.

 

I don't think my comments were idealistic, rather they were simply common sense - which is that if you make the effort and look hard enough, you will find excellent guitars that will do the job that are not as expensive as premium brands. I will give one example: right now, in Huddersfield (where I live) one of the two guitar shops has a Yamaha SG1000 in stock, brand new for less than £900 including the Yamaha case. I have played this guitar and it is the equal of any Gibson Les Paul, Heritage H150, Guild, or what ever premium brand you wish to name. In fact, it is superior to any les paul standard I have played. If those who want a premium quality instrument for less than £1000 will take the trouble to open their eyes and research the market, they will be very pleased with what is on offer.

 

Others here know that I recently bought a Tokai LS95 , which is a Beautiful les paul standard. It is as good a Gibson Les Paul, the finish quality is better, the factory set up is incredible, no need to set up at all once bought, the picks ups are very sweet, there is no way that there is £1000 difference between the tokai and the gibson. My friend, a working musician, has just bought the tokai version of the 335, again, more than £1000 difference between the gibson and the tokai, probably more, but no difference in quality, event the inlay work on our guitars is proper abalone. I get a kick out of not having Gibson on the headstock and letting others spend big money on lifestyle brands.

[mark555]

Patrick, my comments were in relation to what I consider to be the intelligent people who want to look beyond Gibson and Fender. In Gitfiddler's post, which I quoted, he mentioned other Japanese makers. There are some fantastic Japanese guitars: Tokai, Fernandez, Burney, Yamaha to nam As Gitfiddler says, these companies do not advertise, but they are there.

 

I personally feel that the guys at Heritage have got it spot on. They do not want the hassle and aggravation of growing the company, they get a living they must be happy with and produce for a niche market that no one else is touching right now. If they expand the business it just becomes a monster that needs feeding, prices go up and quality go's down, as we have seen elsewhere.

 

I don't think my comments were idealistic, rather they were simply common sense - which is that if you make the effort and look hard enough, you will find excellent guitars that will do the job that are not as expensive as premium brands. I will give one example: right now, in Huddersfield (where I live) one of the two guitar shops has a Yamaha SG1000 in stock, brand new for less than £900 including the Yamaha case. I have played this guitar and it is the equal of any Gibson Les Paul, Heritage H150, Guild, or what ever premium brand you wish to name. In fact, it is superior to any les paul standard I have played. If those who want a premium quality instrument for less than £1000 will take the trouble to open their eyes and research the market, they will be very pleased with what is on offer.

 

Others here know that I recently bought a Tokai LS95 , which is a Beautiful les paul standard. It is as good a Gibson Les Paul, the finish quality is better, the factory set up is incredible, no need to set up at all once bought, the picks ups are very sweet, there is no way that there is £1000 difference between the tokai and the gibson. My friend, a working musician, has just bought the tokai version of the 335, again, more than £1000 difference between the gibson and the tokai, probably more, but no difference in quality, event the inlay work on our guitars is proper abalone. I get a kick out of not having Gibson on the headstock and letting others spend big money on lifestyle brands.

[jazzrat]

For what it's worth guys I hear the same discussion at other brand forums.

I'm a long time Parker, Carvin and G & L player and the buzz on their forums is the same.

Why is our brand X so under appreciated, under advertised or under played by name players.

I don't pretend to know the answers...I just find it interesting how many other

guitar companies operate under the radar so to speak.

[mark555]

don't know how I duplicated the post there guys...

[Patrick]

Patrick, my comments were in relation to what I consider to be the intelligent people who want to look beyond Gibson and Fender. In Gitfiddler's post, which I quoted, he mentioned other Japanese makers. There are some fantastic Japanese guitars: Tokai, Fernandez, Burney, Yamaha to nam As Gitfiddler says, these companies do not advertise, but they are there.

 

I personally feel that the guys at Heritage have got it spot on. They do not want the hassle and aggravation of growing the company, they get a living they must be happy with and produce for a niche market that no one else is touching right now. If they expand the business it just becomes a monster that needs feeding, prices go up and quality go's down, as we have seen elsewhere.

 

I don't think my comments were idealistic, rather they were simply common sense - which is that if you make the effort and look hard enough, you will find excellent guitars that will do the job that are not as expensive as premium brands. I will give one example: right now, in Huddersfield (where I live) one of the two guitar shops has a Yamaha SG1000 in stock, brand new for less than £900 including the Yamaha case. I have played this guitar and it is the equal of any Gibson Les Paul, Heritage H150, Guild, or what ever premium brand you wish to name. In fact, it is superior to any les paul standard I have played. If those who want a premium quality instrument for less than £1000 will take the trouble to open their eyes and research the market, they will be very pleased with what is on offer.

 

Others here know that I recently bought a Tokai LS95 , which is a Beautiful les paul standard. It is as good a Gibson Les Paul, the finish quality is better, the factory set up is incredible, no need to set up at all once bought, the picks ups are very sweet, there is no way that there is £1000 difference between the tokai and the gibson. My friend, a working musician, has just bought the tokai version of the 335, again, more than £1000 difference between the gibson and the tokai, probably more, but no difference in quality, event the inlay work on our guitars is proper abalone. I get a kick out of not having Gibson on the headstock and letting others spend big money on lifestyle brands.

 

 

Yep . . . . I agree with almost everything you said herein. One exception being that the owners don't want the hassle and aggravation of growing the company. Again, I have heard it personally from conversations I've had . . . in person with 2 of the 3 current owners. They want and infact need more business. Also, everything you've said confirms my prior reply to your post. With all of the guitars currently on the market . . . from USA, Japan, Korea, China, etc., the most sought after brands seem to be, far and away . . . . . Gibson & Fender. It's the exposure, the marketing, the brand recognition. It sure as hell isn't because they're the best dollar value on the guitar market.

 

Heritage is at the NAMM show every year. They have a wonderful booth set up as well as notable recording artists performing at their booth. NAMM is a dealer orientated show, that also allows prospective retail buyers . . . such as you and I . . . into the show. That show is VERY VERY expensive to buy booth space and show at. They are there because they want/need more dealers and more dealer business. If they were comfortable with only word of mouth exposure, they would spend the $20,000 or so that they do every year to show at NAMM

 

Trust me on this one . . . if Heritage management had more money to spend on marketing and exposure, they'd do it in a minute and gladly "suffer" through the hassle and aggravation that growth and success would cause them.

[Patrick]

For what it's worth guys I hear the same discussion at other brand forums.

I'm a long time Parker, Carvin and G & L player and the buzz on their forums is the same.

Why is our brand X so under appreciated, under advertised or under played by name players.

I don't pretend to know the answers...I just find it interesting how many other

guitar companies operate under the radar so to speak.

 

It's an easy question to answer jazzrat . . . . not all great guitar makers, are great business people or "marketeers"

 

"He who has a thing to sell, and wispers of it in a well,

is not as apt to make the dollars, as he who climbs to the roof and hollars"

[JeffB]

It's an easy question to answer jazzrat . . . . not all great guitar makers, are great business people or "marketeers"

 

"He who has a thing to sell, and wispers of it in a well,

is not as apt to make the dollars, as he who climbs to the roof and hollars"

The best business model isnt necessarily the biggest or most obvious.

Maybe the best is one that allows you to live comfortably and play golf or go fishing every second afternoon.

Maybe a whisper is all it takes.