slider313 Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 With all due respect to Andy Fuchs and Paul Riviera, the fact is; pcb construction is cheaper, which keeps costs down so they can sell their product at a more affordable price point. Economics 101. Andy will say there's no difference because he wants you to believe there is no difference. Hand wired labor is going to bring the price up considerably but, IMHO, it does have an affect on the sound of the final product. It has to. Trace wire is much shorter and thinner than the cloth covered #22 that most Fender amps used. Does the pcb have tighter specs? Yes. Is it a good thing? Does the extra short trace "choke" the sound to some degree? Everything has some audible affect with respect to value of components, length of wire, construction of and capacitor material. All these things interact when placed in an amplifier chassis. How they interact may or may not make the amp sound better. I'll stick with the old turret board or point to point/terminal strip construction; all day, every day. As for servicing, there's no doubt which is the more "user serviceable product". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockabilly69 Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 I take your point Dan but you are not a typical customer of the kind of amps we're referring to. You're applying your own very particular requirements and experience to 'Joe Public' and that simply isn't the demographic for these amps. A PCB can be replaced in short order, assuming it's not obsolete, and that's what will happen if the amp is under warranty. Again, think of the demographic here - these are amps that go through iterations which force a short product existence intentionally. If the amp is out of warranty, I'd suspect a manufacturer repair would still involve PCB replacement - it's simply more cost-effective. A local amp-tech repairing the PCB? Well, you'll pay through the nose and that's what I was referring to when I said the hand-wired plus point is long-term maintenance. Once again my point is look at the construction mfd techniques used, over the country of origin... When you can buy a Viatnamese handwired VocAC15HW1 for $959 http://www.uniquesquared.com/vox-ac15hw1-hand-wired-combo-amp.html , why buy a Mexican made Fender circuit board amp for $899??? That's the demographic that abounds all over this forum! Especially for someone who just dropped between $1500 and $5000 on a new Heritage guitar. And Kuz, just a few weeks ago, pointed out the Silverface Fenders can be bought pretty damn cheap, at least as cheap as any of the new Princeton/Deluxe/Twin reissues. And I've seen TopHat Club Royales and Club Deluxes go used for between $800 and $1100 dollars! That's why I posted a picture of their circuit boards. There are many other PTP amps that go for little money. And if you have to buy a circuit board amp, go with a Rivera, or a Boogie, which are built to high standards. I'm just saying do a little research and find out what the guts of a new amp look like! You might find some decent amps that come from other countries that are built very well! One of the reasons I post here is to help people that don't play music for a living learn how to get the best tone and longevity, for the price, out of their equipment. The one thing that consistently rears it's head in music for a profession is that, EVERYTHING BREAKS. So yes, I do get to see the pitfalls of badly made amps, and ridiculous repair bills. And the worst of these amps have been PCB USA Fendersand Peaveys ! Yes, they resemble the looks of their vintage counterparts, but in your own words they have "built in obsolesense"! That's why I advocate saving your money and getting a properly built amp. In the scheme of things, properly built amps will last a lifetime, whereas these cheap POS amps coming out of the Fender factory will be expensive nigthmares for many people that want to gig them, or any user that wants to turn them up to the point of vibration. I do not make alot of money playing music and I've had to learn the hard way about what works and what doesn't work. And it isn't always "you get what you pay for" as there is a lot of hype. So I have to be careful in what I buy too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Hey H, is there anyway you could build me one of them things? Sure, but I think it would be a lot cheaper for you to get one built there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockabilly69 Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 I wish I could go back in time, to say 1973 or so, and take with me any one of a number of "cheap" modeling amps, and do some of the gigs I was doing back then. All the stuff that's "vintage" now was easily available and affordable back then, but the problem wasn't the sound of the amp cranked, it was getting the sound you wanted at a volume that wouldn't literally get you fired. Many tortured attempts at a solution were devised. Many awful pedals, (anyone remember the fuzz tone?) One fellow actually put a champ in a box, and mic'd it through an Acoustic 260. Another guy I knew, who I won't drop the name but you all would know who he is, used a Fender head (I think it was a Bassman) into two Marshall 4 x 12 cabs, which dampened the volume a little but his band could get away with being a little louder because they had a good draw. I used a pre cbs twin for a while but without pedals, (by then the tube screamer was available) same issue. Hey H, is there anyway you could build me one of them things? In 1976 I was gigging with a brownface Princeton, and a Melody Maker with a single hot PAF! The other guitarist used a Goldtop Les Paul Deluxe into a Silver Face drip edge Princeton. We both used LPB-1 power boosters to get the Princetons to sing.... we had more worries of the drummer being too loud:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 I wish I could go back in time, to say 1973 or so, and take with me any one of a number of "cheap" modeling amps, and do some of the gigs I was doing back then. All the stuff that's "vintage" now was easily available and affordable back then, but the problem wasn't the sound of the amp cranked, it was getting the sound you wanted at a volume that wouldn't literally get you fired. Many tortured attempts at a solution were devised. Many awful pedals, (anyone remember the fuzz tone?) One fellow actually put a champ in a box, and mic'd it through an Acoustic 260. Another guy I knew, who I won't drop the name but you all would know who he is, used a Fender head (I think it was a Bassman) into two Marshall 4 x 12 cabs, which dampened the volume a little but his band could get away with being a little louder because they had a good draw. I used a pre cbs twin for a while but without pedals, (by then the tube screamer was available) same issue. Hey H, is there anyway you could build me one of them things? Comon, drop the name! Please!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanschoyck Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 In 1976 I was gigging with a brownface Princeton, and a Melody Maker with a single hot PAF! The other guitarist used a Goldtop Les Paul Deluxe into a Silver Face drip edge Princeton. We both used LPB-1 power boosters to get the Princetons to sing.... we had more worries of the drummer being too loud:) Yes! The LPB1. I actually used two chained together for a while. Also a Big Muff. And - I later had a Melody Maker that I had routed for a hum bucker, and a Bad Ass bridge. Kind of a poor man's Les Paul! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanschoyck Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Comon, drop the name! Please!!!! It was Eddie V, playing at a place called Gazzari's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 It was Eddie V, playing at a place called Gazzari's. Gazzari's Hollywood? Great memories of Go-Go Dancers, Pay To Play, bell bottoms and platform shoes...that I really can't remember very well! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazzarri%27s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockabilly69 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Yes! The LPB1. I actually used two chained together for a while. Also a Big Muff. And - I later had a Melody Maker that I had routed for a hum bucker, and a Bad Ass bridge. Kind of a poor man's Les Paul! I had a Badass on my Melody Maker and I used to chain two LPB-1s together once in awhile! Never used the Big Muff though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitBlues Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Just to add, I'm a cheapo when it comes to gear, occasionally, you can get your cake and eat it too... Under $300 hand wired, vintage goodness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockabilly69 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 That's a score! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schundog Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Once again my point is look at the construction mfd techniques used, over the country of origin... When you can buy a Viatnamese handwired VocAC15HW1 for $959 http://www.uniquesquared.com/vox-ac15hw1-hand-wired-combo-amp.html , why buy a Mexican made Fender circuit board amp for $899??? That's the demographic that abounds all over this forum! Especially for someone who just dropped between $1500 and $5000 on a new Heritage guitar. And Kuz, just a few weeks ago, pointed out the Silverface Fenders can be bought pretty damn cheap, at least as cheap as any of the new Princeton/Deluxe/Twin reissues. And I've seen TopHat Club Royales and Club Deluxes go used for between $800 and $1100 dollars! That's why I posted a picture of their circuit boards. There are many other PTP amps that go for little money. And if you have to buy a circuit board amp, go with a Rivera, or a Boogie, which are built to high standards. I'm just saying do a little research and find out what the guts of a new amp look like! You might find some decent amps that come from other countries that are built very well! One of the reasons I post here is to help people that don't play music for a living learn how to get the best tone and longevity, for the price, out of their equipment. The one thing that consistently rears it's head in music for a profession is that, EVERYTHING BREAKS. So yes, I do get to see the pitfalls of badly made amps, and ridiculous repair bills. And the worst of these amps have been PCB USA Fendersand Peaveys ! Yes, they resemble the looks of their vintage counterparts, but in your own words they have "built in obsolesense"! That's why I advocate saving your money and getting a properly built amp. In the scheme of things, properly built amps will last a lifetime, whereas these cheap POS amps coming out of the Fender factory will be expensive nigthmares for many people that want to gig them, or any user that wants to turn them up to the point of vibration. I do not make alot of money playing music and I've had to learn the hard way about what works and what doesn't work. And it isn't always "you get what you pay for" as there is a lot of hype. So I have to be careful in what I buy too! I, for one, greatly appreciate the opinion of a pro! Thanks for posting here, Daniel. That said, I have to take my modest "needs" into consideration when comparing costs on these fun boxes. My gear probably doesn't take 1/10 of the use/abuse that yours does, and my living doesn't depend on it. While a DRRI, a Blues Junior, a Peavey Classic 30, and a Mustang III work for ME, I certainly see why they might not be options for YOU.... Now, my KBP810 Tweed Deluxe Clone would sound SWEET at one of your gigs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitBlues Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I, for one, greatly appreciate the opinion of a pro! Thanks for posting here, Daniel. That said, I have to take my modest "needs" into consideration when comparing costs on these fun boxes. My gear probably doesn't take 1/10 of the use/abuse that yours does, and my living doesn't depend on it. While a DRRI, a Blues Junior, a Peavey Classic 30, and a Mustang III work for ME, I certainly see why they might not be options for YOU.... Now, my KBP810 Tweed Deluxe Clone would sound SWEET at one of your gigs.... And he'd make a killer Matchless clone (which are hot rodded Vox amps)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsp17 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I think they just order the board and replace it. I dont think its rocket science. Ive met the techs that do these repairs as part of their daily grind. Ive played some older twins and the newer ones. i like the newer ones. obviously theres extra mojo in them PCB boards. Speaking of which, I plugged a LP into a twin rev'65ri turned up to about 6.5 today. You cant beat that sound. That is the sound. I forget that that is the sound because I never get to use that sound. Its too loud. Yes! That is the sound. I've played a lot of the re-issues too (probably not as well or as loud as JeffB!). Most of them are excellent. I really like the '65 TRRI and the '65 PRRI. My PRRI had a common quality control issue (was a floor model), but very fixable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockabilly69 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 And he'd make a killer Matchless clone (which are hot rodded Vox amps)! I, for one, greatly appreciate the opinion of a pro! Thanks for posting here, Daniel. That said, I have to take my modest "needs" into consideration when comparing costs on these fun boxes. My gear probably doesn't take 1/10 of the use/abuse that yours does, and my living doesn't depend on it. While a DRRI, a Blues Junior, a Peavey Classic 30, and a Mustang III work for ME, I certainly see why they might not be options for YOU.... Now, my KBP810 Tweed Deluxe Clone would sound SWEET at one of your gigs.... It sounds like he's made some beautiful amps, and I almost bought one somebody here was selling, but then they decided not to sell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrafast1 Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 Ampegs are made in Vietnam I believe. Some may be made in other countries as well. Only a select few marshall amps are still made in England. Still, the Mexico Fender factory has been putting out good guitars for quite a while though. It's also 3 hours south of the Corona factory where they have main US production. I have a Mesa Express Plus 5:25 and a Carvin Quad-X with an Carvin Tube 100. Great amps and made in the U S A !!!!!! I also have an Egnater Rebel 20 that made in Detroit; actually Berkley outside Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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