My H-150 Gets a Makeover

[mark555]

Well, I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I am pretty sure that if you were in a store buying a guitar and played a guitar with a long tenon , then played one with a shorter tenon (and of course, assuming that you did not know), I am pretty sure you would not listen to them an then say "That one has got to have a longer tenon, listen to the tone, I'll have that one please".

[mark555]

regarding the neck of the Les Paul. This quote comes from "The Beauty of the Burst" Page 198, heading : The formation of primary tone on Les Paul Guitars, the neck as a tone filter. it reads as follows:

 

We must study the neck and body as seperate units since they are very different in how they react to string vibration.

 

The vibration character of the neck is determined by its physical structure and material (mass and rigidity/flexibility) Mahogany was the standard material for Les Paul necks except in the 70's. However, the thickness and the shape went through modifications in the three years of sunburst les paul production (58-60) Also at that time the fingerboard was Brazillian Rosewood, which is harder and denser than the current industry standard (time of book published says 1996), Indian rosewood. As to the physical structure, the neck can be described as a cantilever. In Physics, the term refers to a beam supported only at one end.

 

One end of the strings is anchored to the tip of this cantilever. In a long and thin structure such as a guitar neck, the cantilever is particularly sensitive to the force applied at the tip. In that sense, the neck plays an important role as a tone filter. (at this point the book refers to a drawing.) What is interesting here is that the strings are anchored to the neck, which is being moved by the strings own energy. As the neck moves, the strings are also moved by its own energy. In other words, the energy transferred by the neck is fed back to the strings. However, the characteristics of neck vibration are different from that of the strings. This is because the mass, rigidity and flexibility are different between the two. The frequency structure is different and they are out of phase.

 

The vibration fed back to the neck will then collide with the original energy source, the string vibration. When this happens,t he slight lapse of phase crates a new pattern of vibration. Some frequency bands are enhanced while others are weakened, and new tone is formed.

 

As long as a note sustains, this feedback loop of string and neck vibration continues, making the tone rich and complex, in this sense, the neck plays an important role as a tone filter.

 

Since the neck is a tone filter, what becomes important is its rigidity. Rigidity is the tendency to resist deformation. In this case, the neck with higher rigidity is harder to bend, in other words, it is stiff. When the neck is stiff, it is less likely to be affected by string vibration. The neck vibrates less, resulting in less interference between the string and neck vibration. As a consequence, the stiffer neck retains more high frequencies. When a string vibrates, lower frequencies have greater energy that the higher frequencies. The higher frequencies tend to get cancelled when the string and neck vibration interfere with one another. A neck with higher rigidity, with its lower degree of vibration interference, has the tendency to retain high frequencies.

 

2. The rigidity of Les Paul necks.

On the Les Paul models, the neck joins the body at the 16th fret. Compared to the ES335 model of the same era or the SG model from the later days, the rigidity of the neck is greater because the part of the neck protruding from the body is much shorter. This fact is reflected in the tone characteristics and sustain.

 

The rigidity of VINTAGE Les Paul necks.

 

On vintage Les Paul necks, the rigidity (which is an important factor in determining tone) us especially great for the following reasons.

 

1. Grain orientation.

The necks are made from quarter sawn lumber. With this arrangement, the neck is stiffer along the direction of the string tension.

2. Neck/headstock structure

As mentioned in the "structure" chapter (reference to elsewhere in the book), the thickness of the headstock where it joins the neck is greater on the '50's Les Pauls. This, combined with the reinforcement achieved by slanting the grain (also mentioned in structure), brings considerable rigidity to the structure. The influence on the tone can not be ignored.

3. Fingerboard material.

The Brazillian rosewood was the material used on all the 50's Les Paul's except the Customs. The fingerboard, as it it glued to the neck, affects the overall rigidity of the neck. Since the hardness of this wood in between Indian Rosewood and Ebony, the rigidity is higher than that of guitars built in later years.

In conclusion, the neck of the Les Paul model was originally designed to have higher rigidity. The material and construction contributed to this. In the following paragraphs, we will further study other influences of this structure.

 

The author then go's on to discuss at length the influence of age, and the mechanism of 'neck rise', there is too much volume for me to carry on copying that here.

 

In the section of the book entitled "Sunburst Les Paul Phraseology" we can read the following:

 

Deep Joint:

Also known as a long tenon. It is a join originally used on the Les Paul model for setting the neck in the body. It is called a 'deep joint', as the end of the neck penetrates deep into the body. It is one of the strongest joints used in guitar construction.

 

So there you go guys, words from one of the difinitive books on the vintage Les Paul, I hope you found it interesting reading.

[mark555]

Ref the above post: The term 'Brazillian' refers to timber, and not a type of hair style. Thankyou.

[mark555]

Not at all a rude question. I'm a business man. Nothing more . . . nothing less.

 

A guy who owns a market stall is a business man, as is Bill Gates. It's a rather loose term, don't you think?

[Patrick]

A guy who owns a market stall is a business man, as is Bill Gates. It's a rather loose term, don't you think?

 

Exactly!

[Hfan]

Holy cow, I'm off the site for a while and look what happens. Checked in for some light relaxing reading last night, will try War and Peace next time. Very interesting posts, although I was spent and light headed by the time I read them all..

 

OP Scott and all you other newbies, welcome. Scott, it's your guitar, do with it what you like. If it makes you happy it's a good thing. Has he won the record for replies to a first post?

 

I think Patrick had an understandable (to me anyway) reaction to a new poster's inappropriate remarks. I thing the debate and comments from other HOC members regarding Scott's project where polite and appropriate and in the vein of honest discourse. Seems like peace has been restored here which is a good thing for this forum.

[Patrick]

regarding the neck of the Les Paul. This quote comes from "The Beauty of the Burst" Page 198, heading : The formation of primary tone on Les Paul Guitars, the neck as a tone filter. it reads as follows:

 

We must study the neck and body as seperate units since they are very different in how they react to string vibration.

 

The vibration character of the neck is determined by its physical structure and material (mass and rigidity/flexibility) Mahogany was the standard material for Les Paul necks except in the 70's. However, the thickness and the shape went through modifications in the three years of sunburst les paul production (58-60) Also at that time the fingerboard was Brazillian Rosewood, which is harder and denser than the current industry standard (time of book published says 1996), Indian rosewood. As to the physical structure, the neck can be described as a cantilever. In Physics, the term refers to a beam supported only at one end.

 

One end of the strings is anchored to the tip of this cantilever. In a long and thin structure such as a guitar neck, the cantilever is particularly sensitive to the force applied at the tip. In that sense, the neck plays an important role as a tone filter. (at this point the book refers to a drawing.) What is interesting here is that the strings are anchored to the neck, which is being moved by the strings own energy. As the neck moves, the strings are also moved by its own energy. In other words, the energy transferred by the neck is fed back to the strings. However, the characteristics of neck vibration are different from that of the strings. This is because the mass, rigidity and flexibility are different between the two. The frequency structure is different and they are out of phase.

 

The vibration fed back to the neck will then collide with the original energy source, the string vibration. When this happens,t he slight lapse of phase crates a new pattern of vibration. Some frequency bands are enhanced while others are weakened, and new tone is formed.

 

As long as a note sustains, this feedback loop of string and neck vibration continues, making the tone rich and complex, in this sense, the neck plays an important role as a tone filter.

 

Since the neck is a tone filter, what becomes important is its rigidity. Rigidity is the tendency to resist deformation. In this case, the neck with higher rigidity is harder to bend, in other words, it is stiff. When the neck is stiff, it is less likely to be affected by string vibration. The neck vibrates less, resulting in less interference between the string and neck vibration. As a consequence, the stiffer neck retains more high frequencies. When a string vibrates, lower frequencies have greater energy that the higher frequencies. The higher frequencies tend to get cancelled when the string and neck vibration interfere with one another. A neck with higher rigidity, with its lower degree of vibration interference, has the tendency to retain high frequencies.

 

2. The rigidity of Les Paul necks.

On the Les Paul models, the neck joins the body at the 16th fret. Compared to the ES335 model of the same era or the SG model from the later days, the rigidity of the neck is greater because the part of the neck protruding from the body is much shorter. This fact is reflected in the tone characteristics and sustain.

 

The rigidity of VINTAGE Les Paul necks.

 

On vintage Les Paul necks, the rigidity (which is an important factor in determining tone) us especially great for the following reasons.

 

1. Grain orientation.

The necks are made from quarter sawn lumber. With this arrangement, the neck is stiffer along the direction of the string tension.

2. Neck/headstock structure

As mentioned in the "structure" chapter (reference to elsewhere in the book), the thickness of the headstock where it joins the neck is greater on the '50's Les Pauls. This, combined with the reinforcement achieved by slanting the grain (also mentioned in structure), brings considerable rigidity to the structure. The influence on the tone can not be ignored.

3. Fingerboard material.

The Brazillian rosewood was the material used on all the 50's Les Paul's except the Customs. The fingerboard, as it it glued to the neck, affects the overall rigidity of the neck. Since the hardness of this wood in between Indian Rosewood and Ebony, the rigidity is higher than that of guitars built in later years.

In conclusion, the neck of the Les Paul model was originally designed to have higher rigidity. The material and construction contributed to this. In the following paragraphs, we will further study other influences of this structure.

 

The author then go's on to discuss at length the influence of age, and the mechanism of 'neck rise', there is too much volume for me to carry on copying that here.

 

In the section of the book entitled "Sunburst Les Paul Phraseology" we can read the following:

 

Deep Joint:

Also known as a long tenon. It is a join originally used on the Les Paul model for setting the neck in the body. It is called a 'deep joint', as the end of the neck penetrates deep into the body. It is one of the strongest joints used in guitar construction.

 

So there you go guys, words from one of the difinitive books on the vintage Les Paul, I hope you found it interesting reading.

 

 

Holy shit man . . . TMI I hope you were able to cut and paste that. It would have taken me an hour to type it in to a post. Just as I couldn't get through the first 2 paragraphs when I was reading through the Beauty Of The Burst, I was unable to get through even the first 2 sentences of your post. For me, it falls under, totally irrelevant and couldn't care less. I'm sure that I could see guys like Lloyd Loar, Jim Hutchins, Ted McCarty, Marv Lamb, and countless others considering all of those aspects when they designed, built and refined guitars. Except for McCarty, who was an under grad at the University of Cincinnati School of Engineering, the others wouldn't have had a clue what any of it meant. As is the case with my preferences, most who look to acquire a true replica of what has come to be known as "The Holy Grail" . . want 100% accuracy in the replication. That's why the long neck tenon on the replicas. My luthier who is making my clone won't even stamp the serial number on the back of the head stock until he finds the exact same India Ink as used on the originals. In your previous post, you referenced not noticing a tonal difference in a guitar store when playing 2 Les Pauls, one with a long tenon and one with a short tenon. Can you just imagine the difference in tone and structural integrity India Ink will make as compared to conventional modern ink? As for the reasons I prefer the long tenon over the short tenon on a 150 . . . "just in case" it's more structurally sound and "just in case" it might happen to transfer tone and string vibration better. It's the same reason I prefer 4 wheel anti locking brakes over conventional non anti locking brakes . . . "just in case" I might one day need them in a panic stop. I know that is a very loose analogy, but I'm sure you get my drift. The neck tenon is a part of the overall equation of what made the early Les Pauls what they were.

[Guest mgoetting]

 

 

I enjoy that kind of reading. But then I like watching Mythbusters, taking apart clocks, and working on bikes.

[ExNihilo]

About the long tenon....

 

I like the long tenon better, but I don't think it effects tone. Besides that, I think it is virtually impossible to ever know if it does. If you have two guitars (one long tenon and one short tenon) and they sound different, there would be no way of knowing if it is because of the tenon. I personally like the tenon because it looks like a higher quality instrument to me. It's sort of like nibs on the binding.

 

There are some modifications that you know effect tone (change the pickups, the electronics, or the bridge etc.), but we can never know with the tenon.

 

Something that I WAS planning on doing was change out the stock H-150 electronics for a RS vintage kit. Also, I was considering putting in Sheptone pickups. However, I found that I like the sound of my H-150 so much as it is that I think I am going to just leave these things stock.

[JeffB]

Well, I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I am pretty sure that if you were in a store buying a guitar and played a guitar with a long tenon , then played one with a shorter tenon (and of course, assuming that you did not know), I am pretty sure you would not listen to them an then say "That one has got to have a longer tenon, listen to the tone, I'll have that one please".

After trying every long tenon single cut mahogany with maple cap guitar I could find I bought a short tenon Heritage.

I wasnt aware that it had a shorter tenon. I was aware of it feeling quite alive and resonating loudly in a pleasing way unplugged and plugged in and turned up to a pleasing level it was freaking awesome and inspiring.

But now I know that it has a short tenon Im gutted. I want a long tenon so I can have the tone...err.... that I have now.

Glad Im not a train spotter by nature. Id be broke for one thing.

[Patrick]

After trying every long tenon single cut mahogany with maple cap guitar I could find I bought a short tenon Heritage.

I wasnt aware that it had a shorter tenon. I was aware of it feeling quite alive and resonating loudly in a pleasing way unplugged and plugged in and turned up to a pleasing level it was freaking awesome and inspiring.

But now I know that it has a short tenon Im gutted. I want a long tenon so I can have the tone...err.... that I have now.

Glad Im not a train spotter by nature. Id be broke for one thing.

 

I understand your point sir. Heritage H150s sound fantastic!! No one's disputing that. However, do you know for sure that it (the Heritage) wouldn't sound even better with a long tenon? Of course you don't. Neither do I, or anyone else for that matter. And, no one will know, until Heritage makes an H150 with a long neck tenon.

[Patrick]

About the long tenon....

 

I like the long tenon better, but I don't think it effects tone. Besides that, I think it is virtually impossible to ever know if it does. If you have two guitars (one long tenon and one short tenon) and they sound different, there would be no way of knowing if it is because of the tenon. I personally like the tenon because it looks like a higher quality instrument to me. It's sort of like nibs on the binding.

 

There are some modifications that you know effect tone (change the pickups, the electronics, or the bridge etc.), but we can never know with the tenon.

 

Something that I WAS planning on doing was change out the stock H-150 electronics for a RS vintage kit. Also, I was considering putting in Sheptone pickups. However, I found that I like the sound of my H-150 so much as it is that I think I am going to just leave these things stock.

 

Yeah Scott. . . I concur. There will always be variables in 2 separate guitars, even if built on the same day, buy the same person with the same materials. So, one could never point to the difference in the long and short tenons as being the only variable responsible for a difference in tonal quality. This discussion with these exact same points have been had here on HOC almost as many times as the discussions about head stock designs. They seem to be subjects that we love to discuss and fight over. Go figure! While there will always be uncertainty about whether or not a long tenon makes a guitar more resonant or more structurally sound than a short tenon, I'm sure that you and I can say this with certainty; the longer tenon will NOT make the guitar less structurally sound . . and the longer tenon will NOT make the guitar less resonant. With those two truisms in consideration and the POSSIBILITY that the longer tenon may be better . . . . I want the longer tenon.

 

The need for the longer tenon on a true to spec replica is a whole different matter.

[rjsanders]

for a true replica the long tenon is a must.

 

for tone & sustain & cetera the length of the tenon is not a factor. i've got a couple Chapins with bolt-on necks that sustain as well as the best setnecklongtenon Gibsons i've ever played. he emphasizes the type of pocket & the fit. his setneck designs use a patentable join (but he can't afford the patent fees) that sustain like pianos. also, on one of my trips to Rick Turner's place in Santa Cruz he said "the neck is the tone engine of the instrument". great guy

 

[Patrick]

for a true replica the long tenon is a must.

 

for tone & sustain & cetera the length of the tenon is not a factor. i've got a couple Chapins with bolt-on necks that sustain as well as the best setnecklongtenon Gibsons i've ever played. he emphasizes the type of pocket & the fit. his setneck designs use a patentable join (but he can't afford the patent fees) that sustain like pianos. also, on one of my trips to Rick Turner's place in Santa Cruz he said "the neck is the tone engine of the instrument". great guy

 

 

Again . . . no one knows for sure that the length of the neck tenon doesn't affect tone. No one can know for sure . It's impossible to know for sure. Everyone's opinion on this matter is exactly that . . opinion. There is, currently, no precise and exact way of measuring one against the other. I don't care what Chapin, Rick Turner or anyone else for that matter, says. Until someone is capable of producing two virtually identical guitars, with absolutely no variables . . . except one has a short tenon and the other has a long one . . . it will be virtually impossible to pinpoint the source of any detectable difference in tone. I would even go so far as to say that a guitar made with a short tenon but much better tone wood, will probably sound better than a guitar made with a long tenon and poor tone wood.

[NoNameBand]

Exactly!

 

A Man with a business is a Business Man. Even with or without a Long Tenon neck.

[mark555]

Holy shit man . . . TMI I hope you were able to cut and paste that. It would have taken me an hour to type it in to a post. Just as I couldn't get through the first 2 paragraphs when I was reading through the Beauty Of The Burst, I was unable to get through even the first 2 sentences of your post. For me, it falls under, totally irrelevant and couldn't care less. I'm sure that I could see guys like Lloyd Loar, Jim Hutchins, Ted McCarty, Marv Lamb, and countless others considering all of those aspects when they designed, built and refined guitars. Except for McCarty, who was an under grad at the University of Cincinnati School of Engineering, the others wouldn't have had a clue what any of it meant. As is the case with my preferences, most who look to acquire a true replica of what has come to be known as "The Holy Grail" . . want 100% accuracy in the replication. That's why the long neck tenon on the replicas. My luthier who is making my clone won't even stamp the serial number on the back of the head stock until he finds the exact same India Ink as used on the originals. In your previous post, you referenced not noticing a tonal difference in a guitar store when playing 2 Les Pauls, one with a long tenon and one with a short tenon. Can you just imagine the difference in tone and structural integrity India Ink will make as compared to conventional modern ink? As for the reasons I prefer the long tenon over the short tenon on a 150 . . . "just in case" it's more structurally sound and "just in case" it might happen to transfer tone and string vibration better. It's the same reason I prefer 4 wheel anti locking brakes over conventional non anti locking brakes . . . "just in case" I might one day need them in a panic stop. I know that is a very loose analogy, but I'm sure you get my drift. The neck tenon is a part of the overall equation of what made the early Les Pauls what they were.

 

I typed it by hand specifically for you....

 

Had my scanner been working, of course it would have been more simple. I don't care if you didn't bother reading it, it was for the benefit of any one who is into this kind of thing and puts the science behind the theory. When I was copying this down, I actually thought this probably backs up your argument.

 

And yes, I do think the type of ink plays a huge part in reduction of guitar weight, that's why early les pauls only weighed about eight pounds.

[ExNihilo]

I would even go so far as to say that a guitar made with a short tenon but much better tone wood, will probably sound better than a guitar made with a long tenon and poor tone wood.

 

Oh, it would for sure. No doubt about that.

 

If you are planning on Heritage building you a custom, one thing that would be neat (if they would consider it) would be to see if they would use hide glue. I believe that hide glue really does make a more resonant guitar.

[H]

However, do you know for sure that it (the Heritage) wouldn't sound even better with a long tenon? Of course you don't. Neither do I, or anyone else for that matter. And, no one will know, until Heritage makes an H150 with a long neck tenon.

Not true. Please see all your previous assertions on the infinite variables in play to create tone.

 

Just playing Devil's advocate

[mark555]

and another thing, the tenon could be stuck out the other end of the guitar and if the guy playing is no good, what difference does it make?

 

Hows this for an idea? A boss long tenon neck replicator, you could have a control which you can dial in to replicate different length of tenon x by density of neck.

[NoNameBand]

Oh, it would for sure. No doubt about that.

 

If you are planning on Heritage building you a custom, one thing that would be neat (if they would consider it) would be to see if they would use hide glue. I believe that hide glue really does make a more resonant guitar.

 

Regarding the Hide Glue. At PSP III, I spoke to Marv about that and he said they have worked with both and found that the Hide glue did not achieve the same degree of bond. Over time, they have had experience of failure with Hide Glue and no failures with the glue they use. I know historical guitars used this and some current VOS use it and suggest it is superior, but not according to Marv. Based on his experience, I would yield to having done as opposed to thinking or wondering about it. Apparently, Hide glue can continue to move over time which may (even if rare) have an adverse affect of the stability of the neck. I on the other have, have not built thousands of guitars, nor do I have any comparisons. So I will stay out of it.

 

I believe that Heritage uses Tite Bond glue.

[Patrick]

Oh, it would for sure. No doubt about that.

 

If you are planning on Heritage building you a custom, one thing that would be neat (if they would consider it) would be to see if they would use hide glue. I believe that hide glue really does make a more resonant guitar.

 

I have heard many luthiers say that hide glue is better also. I'm not sure they aren't using it now. However, I wouldn't be so bold to ask for such a spec change. Now you are definitely taking about something that could . . I say could . . affect the structural integrity of a guitar. If I was part of management at Heritage and someone asked us to deviate from our current gluing materials or processes. . . if I did so, I would state explicitly that the guitar would be void of any warranty as it relates to seam or binding separation.

[rjsanders]

i ran across this a few months ago and it was mentioned in passing here earlier. Gil Yaron in Israel built this beautiful '59 Les Paul Standard replica and documented it in steps. excellent reading here. an education for me on the variables and other elements (documentation, materials, etc.) involved.

 

 

(and it started out as a fret job )

[Patrick]

and another thing, the tenon could be stuck out the other end of the guitar and if the guy playing is no good, what difference does it make?

 

Hows this for an idea? A boss long tenon neck replicator, you could have a control which you can dial in to replicate different length of tenon x by density of neck.

 

Mark . . . if you keep coming up with these ingenious ideas, I'm gonna start thinking that you're really a capitalist Yank entrepreneur, disguised as a mild mannered Brit.

[mark555]

At last, my genious has been recognised

[NoNameBand]

At last, my genious has been recognised

 

Patrick doesn't miss a beat.