Doobie Brothers tone quest with new 535

[eljay]

Well, PSP got a little spendy for me . . . bought the pictured 535 standard (with same OSB finish as TRich's new 530).

Point 1: I'm trying to recreate the tone as heard on a couple of Doobie Brothers songs, South City Midnight Lady and Another Park, Another Sunday.

My best guess is that the guitar played on those songs is a G 335. Can anyone confirm this?

Point 2: If the guitar is a 335, how can I get my new 535 to sound like this? SD 59s are in the new axe and I haven't been able to get the tone I seek. I see mixed reviews of the 59s here on HOC and I wonder if Seth Lovers would get me closer? Or, just change the magnets in the 59s to alnico 2 or 3? Or . . . ?

Comments and insights most appreciated! Thanks, eljay

[TalismanRich]

Usually Pat Simmons is playing an acoustic and Tom Johnstons's primary guitars have been PRS for many years.     

Back in the mid 70s,  Pat would often play a sunburst ES345 but the Varitone was disconnected.  He also had a natural finish ES345 with gold hardware in 74.  He  had a red ES335 that he sometimes tuned to DADDAD.  As to what he played on any particular record, it's hard to say.   

Tom Johnston had a couple of Les Pauls,  a black Custom w/ a Bigsby and a gold top w/P90s.  I've seen some videos  with him playing an SG.  He also played a 335 on occasion in the early days of the Doobies.

For South City Midnight Lady,  Pat was probably playing his Ovation acoustic.  Skunk Baxter was playing steel guitar.   Don't know what Tom was playing, but I read that Pat did solos on his 335.

From the concert photos I've seen, they mostly had Fender amps.   

 

[TalismanRich]

Something else to remember is that Pat will quite often fingerpick his electrics.   That's going to give a different sound that using a pick.

Here's a shot of Tom Johnston playing an ES-150 on Midnight Special.

[eljay]

Very informative, Rich, thanks kindly!

[rwinking]

I think he was using Heritage Custom Shop 225s......

[TalismanRich]

Thinking about the pickups,  if the guitars were late 60s or early 70s, they probably had Gibson T-Tops.   Guys like Seymour Duncan and Larry Dimarzio didn't really start making after market pups until around 72 or 73. 

As to how they were made,  according to this article, they would be Alnico 5 with polyurethane coated wire ~7.5 ohms.  That's pretty much the SD-59 recipe, isn't it.

https://musicalilluminism.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/vintage-gibson-humbucker-specs-and-general-pickup-tech/ 

[tbonesullivan]

Most of their sounds are pretty Fender sounding, and since they formed in California, most likely Fenders and modded fenders were the weapons of choice, with relatively low levels of overdrive. Some googling brings up things like a Fender Twin and a Marshall JMP, and listening to a lot of their stuff just makes me think "tweed".

There are some really nice tweed pedals out there, both analog and modeling, and might be best to look into those before going down the pickup rabbit hole. '59 pickups should be able to do Doobie brothers stuff just fine.

[eljay]

Update, I fiddled around with pickup selection and tone controls and found that the neck pup only and treble rolled way down yield tone similar to what I've been after. Progress made! Also must consider the possibility that effects pedal is in the mix. I'm playing straight into the amp with just a bit of reverb dialed up.

[TalismanRich]

There's a cool little blue pedal that you can plug into and get a really nice "woman tone".   Pete Farmer loaned me his pedal for PSP.  

[eljay]

I heard it at the VFW and was quite impressed! I've scrounged up my MXR equalizer and will mess with it and the 535.

[DetroitBlues]

I've sort of stopped chasing down tones in my head and chasing tones in my ears.  I went down the rabbit hole for tone quests and found that tone in a room sounds different than tone on a recording.  Pickups, guitars, strings, amps, speakers, microphones, where you pick the strings, how you pick the strings, post preamp equalization.... its maddening when you start to dig into it.  I've only changed pickups in recent years for noise and feedback reduction.  

I think you'd be amazed how that beautiful H535 sounds depending on the amp and the use of the tone controls.  I really love the middle position, I turn the volume on the bridge pickup to around a 7 or 8, roll back the tone to an 8.  Then on the neck position, I'll roll the volume back just a touch at a time until it just adds a bit of warmth to the bridge pickup, usually it ends up around 6-7.   When I need a bit for a lead solo, I'll go to the bridge and sometimes raise the volume up a bit.  All this is accomplished to get a tone that I can clearly hear against the band and sounds good to me.  I stopped chasing my hero's tones and just play to the song.

One of my favorite tunes lately is Marshall Tucker's Can't You See.  I'll play the flute and the lead guitar tracks with any of my guitars; by adjusting the controls I can make any of them sound pretty close to each other and they all have different pickups.... H150 with SD 59's, H137 with Mojotone Quiet Coil P90's, H535 with a Railhammer Neuvo in the neck and a Red Rock A3 humbucker in the bridge.  I can use any of those guitars and achieve a tone that sounds good to me even if there is a slight difference in sound.  Audiences don't know the difference.

In other words, don't get too caught up yet on pickup being a problem, there is a lot more to the signal chain besides the pickups.