Guest HRB853370 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I was just wondering how durable tube amps are and what kind of drops they can survive and keep on ticking. Anybody have any real life experiences to share about this? In the same vein, would a pc board amp survive moreso than a hand wired amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitArtMan Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I'd say it depnds on how big of a drop. My guess is that a drop big enough to damge a tube would cause some damage to the cabinet as well. Tube amps ahve been the mainstay of rock and roll since the birth of rock, they've gone on tours, club dates, been bounced around in cars, trucks, busses, airplanes and keep on ticking. That said my audiphile brother-in-law can't believe that we move our tubes amps and that we would have the amps/speaker in the same cabinet (combo amps). The hand wired vs. PC board debate is as old as the first amp to use PC boards. It depends on the quality of the PC board I suppose. Some are heavy duty and made to withtand the rigours of the road. Some are cheap POS that are designed to be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidsmoke Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I believe so. I can tell you this. I have a PC board tube amp. (Bugera V22, Jeff's favorite) It's a 1x12 roughly the size of a Reverb Deluxe. It was getting a lot of use (being lugged around) and a lot of praise. On a carpeted rear deck area of my vehicle, I had failed to lay it down, so g forces took the liberty of doing it for me. Not at high speed or particularly violently, it tipped and went SLAM. It soon developed an erratic, and loud, popping habit, that the one tech I took it to could not identify. "for 300.00, i should be able to figure it out" riiiight. I just took it to a second guy, widely renowned, and he'll give me an estimate. If he can't figure it out, it's a paper weight, and I'll have a few tubes available cheap. (tried a re-tube kit, with fingers crossed, to no avial, they've got maybe an hour on 'em) Moral of the story, in my view, is that if falling did damage it, and it was a P2P, identifying the failed/damaged component would be fairly easy. Not so much with a board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoslate Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 It's my understanding that some tubes (EL34's, for example) are more vulnerable to shock, than others. And it's also my understanding that all tubes are more vulnerable when moved and bumped, before they've had a chance to cool down. Always let my amps cool, before loading out, after a gig. Somebody like Mavguy or KBP will have the definitive word.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I believe so. I can tell you this. I have a PC board tube amp. (Bugera V22, Jeff's favorite) It's a 1x12 roughly the size of a Reverb Deluxe. It was getting a lot of use (being lugged around) and a lot of praise. On a carpeted rear deck area of my vehicle, I had failed to lay it down, so g forces took the liberty of doing it for me. Not at high speed or particularly violently, it tipped and went SLAM. It soon developed an erratic, and loud, popping habit, that the one tech I took it to could not identify. "for 300.00, i should be able to figure it out" riiiight. I just took it to a second guy, widely renowned, and he'll give me an estimate. If he can't figure it out, it's a paper weight, and I'll have a few tubes available cheap. (tried a re-tube kit, with fingers crossed, to no avial, they've got maybe an hour on 'em) Moral of the story, in my view, is that if falling did damage it, and it was a P2P, identifying the failed/damaged component would be fairly easy. Not so much with a board. My question came from the same thing happening. I had just loaded my Deluxe Reverb RI (PC board) into my jeep, and left it upright. Duh!!! The G forces of making a right turn landed it flat on its back. My jeep has carpeting and a thick rubber mat over the carpet. In addition, the amp had a vinyl cover on it. Glad it didnt land on the face, but I was still pissed at my own lack of common sense. Laying it flat to begin with instead of letting it fall down would have made more sense. I got it home, plugged it in and everything seems fine. And yes, the tubes were cold when it was moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitfiddler Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Many years ago my Ampeg VT22 combo fell off of a stage. It survived the fall with zero issues, but at least two dancers were crushed under the weight. Just kidding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitBlues Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Ever drop an egg carton full off eggs? That should help give you an idea. Some may live, but most will break. That's why it's a good idea to remove tubes from amps when shipping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 What 'slate said...very much so. Knock over an amp with the cathodes glowing and there is a lot more chance for red hot or nearly red hot metal inside the tube envelopes to be deformed by outside forces. Some of that hot metal stuff is wire filaments, way thinner than any hairs on yer body, and longer than most of 'em... Upon shutdown, let your hot amp amp cool a few minutes at least before moving it, enough to leave a finger on a power tube for several seconds without screaming, hearing sizzling noises or smelling cauterized skin surfaces...but if you have to, set it down like it was filled with something that would blow you to bits if it was set down with any bump at all.. The Bugera experience has been detailed many, many times online to be like earlier in this thread, but without any bumps, just NOBCS (normal operation bugera crapout syndrome.) Not all PCB amps suck. Wonderful ones come from Fuchs, and VVT at least. These are serious PTP boutique builders who happen to also know how to do PCB well. The VVT X-series are amazing Dumble style tone values, and the Fuchs line is well known and highly praised among owners. Given my druthers, pure point to point, or ptp/terminal strips, eyelet board, turret board are the ways to have an amp made just for you. And frankly if the buyer is sharp a better handmade amp can be had for surprisingly close to a big name chinese or Mexican labor factory build. I'd like to cite as well as salute Allen, and Sligo amplification to name just two great examples here in the US, hardworking American small business owners doing it rignt and for a rock bottom price for what you get. Any of their blackface builds of Fender Deluxe would wipe the floor with their closest Fender so-called "Reissue" model equivalents today, ever price those RI's at retail nd compare? There are some American builders like Marsh and Frenzel who do up great F-circuits with great parts that sound great for great values, expecially 5 years after the money leaves your hands, that hand wired amp will be the one to retain market value fo sho. And don't forget Ted Weber, and guys like Tony Bruno, Chris Siegmund, George Alessandro, Henry of Red Plate, and Shad Damron of Quinnamps. Just a micro-short list of scores of great American amp builders, whose labors are offered in the best, widest and deepest spectrum buyer's market for guitar amps ever, right now. Rant warning... Please, please, please, HOC'ers, give up your desires for easily attained instant gratification, big name brand, made in China, big monster giga-chain couple hundy less $$ right here right now... store bought tone. Buy something US made instead by domestic labor. You are investing far more than just in yourself and from the guys previously mentioned, worth it...it is! end rant. The first time that inexpensively Chinese built and sold PCB amp quits on you, you are likely to have a higher proportion of it's current used market value worth spent to repair it, PCB amps as a rule are more difficult and labor intensive to toubleshoot, as well as repair. The second time that happens to that same amp (because chances are good it will happen)...pangs of buyer's remorse for the one that was dollars more...get greatly amplified. Just like thousands of others in the marketing/advertising, magazine article manipulated herd found out already, and soon after their respective purchases, you will echo the collective, plaintive "Waaaaah" call of the saddened decieved ones, often later gossiping to others near or at the counters of the stores that sold that merch in the first place. How much is that extra up front $$ over 15, 20 years? And how much will repairs for the poorly built one add up to over that kind of time? Boutique amps for boutique guitars! Boutique guitars for boutique amps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DetroitBlues Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 What you're talking about, I have done on many of my amps. I finally remembered to lay them down flat if I can't wedge them upright so they won't fall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Heavens, seat belt them in. Great rant 212! Well thought out and said; hurrumph! (+1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trouble Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 2 stories, both true. Several years ago I was loading up for a gig and was carrying my Super out to the truck, any body that has ever handled an old Super Reverb knows that they are not the lightest of amps. Mine is a 66 and still has the original handle, which I came to distrust years ago(bound to break eventually right?) so when I carry it I tilt it up on one corner, put one hand underneath and one hand across the top and kind of bearhug it against my chest. I was walking to the truck and stepped in a stump hole, and somehow I managed to twist so that the amp was on top and I was on bottom so as not to damage it. The problem with that was, I was on bottom. Made the gig and suffered (I mean suffered) through it, although I had to sit for the whole thing. Amp was fine. Second story has nothing to do with music but this thread reminded me of it. Was coming home from a machine shop with a Chevy small block in the bed of my truck, a little Isuzu beater I used as a work truck, and had to slam on the brakes when someone pulled out in front of me. The motor slid from the tailgate to the cab so hard it bent the bed into the cab, bent the cab enough to break the back glass, and the asshole that pulled out in front of me slowly motored away. The upside was the Chevy pick em up truck I put the motor in was a screamer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 ha..great story Trouble!!! in the '60's Pete Traynor used to test his amps by throwing them off the top of a 2 story building they'd then proceed to pick them up, clean out the broken glass ( yes they left the tubes in when they did the crash test ) plug in new tubes, and fire it up old Traynor's are rugged, killer sounding handwired amps. and they are darn cheap, for what they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 What 'slate said...very much so. Knock over an amp with the cathodes glowing and there is a lot more chance for red hot or nearly red hot metal inside the tube envelopes to be deformed by outside forces. Some of that hot metal stuff is wire filaments, way thinner than any hairs on yer body, and longer than most of 'em... Upon shutdown, let your hot amp amp cool a few minutes at least before moving it, enough to leave a finger on a power tube for several seconds without screaming, hearing sizzling noises or smelling cauterized skin surfaces...but if you have to, set it down like it was filled with something that would blow you to bits if it was set down with any bump at all.. The Bugera experience has been detailed many, many times online to be like earlier in this thread, but without any bumps, just NOBCS (normal operation bugera crapout syndrome.) Not all PCB amps suck. Wonderful ones come from Fuchs, and VVT at least. These are serious PTP boutique builders who happen to also know how to do PCB well. The VVT X-series are amazing Dumble style tone values, and the Fuchs line is well known and highly praised among owners. Given my druthers, pure point to point, or ptp/terminal strips, eyelet board, turret board are the ways to have an amp made just for you. And frankly if the buyer is sharp a better handmade amp can be had for surprisingly close to a big name chinese or Mexican labor factory build. I'd like to cite as well as salute Allen, and Sligo amplification to name just two great examples here in the US, hardworking American small business owners doing it rignt and for a rock bottom price for what you get. Any of their blackface builds of Fender Deluxe would wipe the floor with their closest Fender so-called "Reissue" model equivalents today, ever price those RI's at retail nd compare? There are some American builders like Marsh and Frenzel who do up great F-circuits with great parts that sound great for great values, expecially 5 years after the money leaves your hands, that hand wired amp will be the one to retain market value fo sho. And don't forget Ted Weber, and guys like Tony Bruno, Chris Siegmund, George Alessandro, Henry of Red Plate, and Shad Damron of Quinnamps. Just a micro-short list of scores of great American amp builders, whose labors are offered in the best, widest and deepest spectrum buyer's market for guitar amps ever, right now. Rant warning... Please, please, please, HOC'ers, give up your desires for easily attained instant gratification, big name brand, made in China, big monster giga-chain couple hundy less $$ right here right now... store bought tone. Buy something US made instead by domestic labor. You are investing far more than just in yourself and from the guys previously mentioned, worth it...it is! end rant. The first time that inexpensively Chinese built and sold PCB amp quits on you, you are likely to have a higher proportion of it's current used market value worth spent to repair it, PCB amps as a rule are more difficult and labor intensive to toubleshoot, as well as repair. The second time that happens to that same amp (because chances are good it will happen)...pangs of buyer's remorse for the one that was dollars more...get greatly amplified. Just like thousands of others in the marketing/advertising, magazine article manipulated herd found out already, and soon after their respective purchases, you will echo the collective, plaintive "Waaaaah" call of the saddened decieved ones, often later gossiping to others near or at the counters of the stores that sold that merch in the first place. How much is that extra up front $$ over 15, 20 years? And how much will repairs for the poorly built one add up to over that kind of time? Boutique amps for boutique guitars! Boutique guitars for boutique amps! Geez mavguy, ya sorta got off track now didn't ya? I mean, I wasn't asking for a PSA about boutique amps man. I was asking about how hard a bump a tube could take without internal damage. Now, switching back to normal programming here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 What you're talking about, I have done on many of my amps. I finally remembered to lay them down flat if I can't wedge them upright so they won't fall... I get it. And the sound of that thud makes the heart skip a beat. Doesn't stupidity suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredZepp Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I think that you have a better chance of damaging a tube amp if you throw it, not drop it. ... but I can't say for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Slammer, you are 100% right. I did go off, way more than what is normal for most posts of mine here. I'm standing 100% behnd it, extemporaneous words and all. You did get your question answered and then some. You're welcome! Now I'm going back down to my workbench to take apart a '65 vintage tube amp and redo the tone caps and hope that I don't drop it while carrying it down there. PS Fredzepp, thanks for your post, my fave kind of humor there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I was getting my old marshall repaired, the repair shop was down a flight of stairs I had sprung for some real NOS GEC KT66 power tubes from the '60's ( 4 of them, it's 100w ). very $$ after i picked it up, I climbed up the stairs, but the very top step was about 2" shorter than all the rest....I tripped & dropped the fuggin amp down hard...luckily it didn't tumble all the way down!!! but I didn't hear any breaking glass...got it home & it fired up ok *whew* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidsmoke Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 @ Mavguy. Totally appreciate the rant. But even "affordable" boutique amps are serious $$$$. Right now I'm trying to get the most I can out of what I've got, and constantly considering options as they come along (as just about anyone here who's ever posted an amp for sale can tell you!) But seriously....I get it. Hope you dodged a bullet, Slammer! Like you dodged that 18 wheeler a couple weeks back. Lesson learned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 "So quiet you could hear a tube amp drop". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfan Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I enjoyed Marvguys rant (actually made great sense) and Bolero's Traynor story (they really dropped them 2 stories? incredible), and Trouble's engine in the pickup/almost a broken ankle story. Will , to remain on topic, I advise that when transporting your amp, wrap it in a plastic bag so when you drop it the mojo can be reclaimed or consider plastic tubes(only kidding buddy). I like my little pcb Blues Jr but I don't think I'll buy any more pcb amps with the availability of alternatives as mentioned by Marvguy. I might add our very own kbp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 maybe there is a market for NERF tube amp covers? FYI Kidsmoke, you can pickup a vintage '60's Traynor YBA-1 for less than $500 all day long...I have one with EL34's it's like a mix between a Marshall & a Hiwatt. loaded with 6L6's they're more Fendery IMO you can't get a better built handwired amp, they are tanks! just for kicks, maybe I'll bring one to PSP next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 @Hfan, Here's an example of a vintage-boutique amp to be, it's arriving this week. http://www.ebay.com/itm/140837784344?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 It's supposed to be all the way there for originality, but frankly that original and wonderful tone this circuit kicks out is still only a large fraction of what the amp is capable of in quantity and quality. I just finished up an identical version of this amp running 6v6's built for another brand label, I got the base amp for somewhere between 89-91 bucks cash, and have less than 350 dollars into it, total. It's a monster with Russian PIO tone caps in it and now sports a late 40's-early 50's original cone Altec 600B, along with a full, vintage correct VOS retube. I got that speaker for less than 90 bucks delivered. There are a few rules to follow for affordable boutique badassity. 1) Do your own due diligence research, at a personal time invertment ratio of 3 parts personal digging to asking questions of fellow forumites. Learn what is on the market and the circuit/tube type for each amp you are interested in. Find out what they are going for current market value. Learn the various construction methods used to make amps and be able to recognize them instantly in gut shot pics of the amp you are interested in. How are you going to spot a fake if you don't? 2) Look at the trendy ones the herd wants so you can learn to avoid them like the plague, anything all tube and vintage by Fender, Vox, Marshall will be high priced for what is obtained. 3) Look for sister brands of popular amps made by the same builders of the more popular, spendy siblings and cousins. 4) Realize that MANY, of these are going to be built in such a messy, unkempt fashion with wierd circuits too hard to work on with tubes too hard to easily find to be practical for the time spent, that will be up to individual's choice. Have heard a lot of this kind of talk about some of the vintage medium and higher power Gibson amps, and that is why they don't go for much money compared to better laid out and engineered competition. NO PCB! NONE! and that inclued sub boards around the tone pots, filter supples, etc. An add on bias adjustment board is OK, though. True ptp, terminal strips, eyelet and/or turret board is what to look for. 5) Changing out old parts in a vintage amp, doesn't that destroy the amp's "mojo juju-ness?" NOOOOOO!!! If you bought right in the first place you bought an amp with a great circuit built with intentionally, carefully chosen cost cutting cheesiness in parts selection for that time of original build. Respect the CIRCUIT, not the original cheesy parts except the iron, leave that alone if it is good because of you change that the aforementioned MOJO will be gone and something else (maybe but may not be better) will be subbed in with the new transformers. So feel to sub out resistors, the ones that frequently get hot will probably be out of spec due to use over time, and out of value is NOT vintage correct, is it? So respect the circuit and for boutique build get the nicest parts you know about for the various positions they fill, that is what it takes for making up one of these in to an affordable pet monster instead of an affordable, yappy ratdog. Learn what resistor types are and caps as well so to best interpret where you apply them on your personal electronic canvas. This particular amp will have different tone caps and some tubes will be subbed out in the first iteration, and that Jensen is gonna go away for sure (yes, available for PP $$, PM me) and be replaced by a similar period JBL or Altec. Half of the resulting tone will be speaker choice, rest is guitar and tubes. I will have 700-800 bucks into an amp that sounds like a 3000 dollar handwired boutique, because in this example the circuit's build, wire routing/lead dress inside is of a handwired boutique style and quality originally. Second revision will be repinning the power tube sockets to run Bendix Red Bank 6094's out of my collection of VOS along with some circuit tweaking for optimizing the slightly different, more tonally capable tube type. And if that result ends up sounding less fantastic than the first iteration, all mods are reversible. It's OK to have to take two steps back after a single forward one as long as some victories are obtained along the way, knowledge attained through personal experience is part of the victor's spoils. 6.) Appropriate tools and the ability to use them safely and effectively are prereq's. Practice on easy projects first and know what good work is supposed to look like before you pick up that soldering iron and again after you put it down each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredZepp Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
212Mavguy Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidsmoke Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 maybe there is a market for NERF tube amp covers? FYI Kidsmoke, you can pickup a vintage '60's Traynor YBA-1 for less than $500 all day long...I have one with EL34's it's like a mix between a Marshall & a Hiwatt. loaded with 6L6's they're more Fendery IMO you can't get a better built handwired amp, they are tanks! just for kicks, maybe I'll bring one to PSP next year good info! Traynors are around for sure. Are the newer vintage still Toronto built? My '65 P2P Ampeg is in the shop getting a once over right now. My hope is that he'll identify an issue that contributed to the low output. The tones were excellent but the volume topped out early, and it was a bit muddy with 'buckers. I chose to have it thoroughly inspected and made tip top before spending serious dough on a replacement. Point is with all that, at it's age I don't wanna be dragging around too much. Heresy though it may be, I was actually considering a USA built Tech 21 (SS amp) for it's durability and versatility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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